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It was clear to me and many other people from the first days after oct 7 that the actions taken by israel in gaza did not align with their stated goals, and tha

It was clear to me and many other people from the first days after oct 7 that the actions taken by israel in gaza did not align with their stated goals, and that genocide was the likely outcome. I hope people changing their view of it now will reflect on at what point they could have seen that, and what prevented them from seeing it, and what prevented them from taking seriously the people who did see it. Does everyone hold the belief that everything was fine until two days ago? I don't think that's a very strong position.

maroonblazer 1y ago
Israel didn't take any actions until Oct 13. What actions 'from the first days' are you referring to?
- lazyasciiart 1y ago
  Israel was launching air strikes before noon on October 7, killing hundreds of people with those strikes that day alone. Israeli news reports on Sunday morning variously mentioned 800 strikes and more than 16 tons of munitions dropped on the Gaza Strip. https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-are-at-war-netanyahu-says-after-hamas-launches-devastating-surprise-attack/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-are-at-war-netanyahu-says-a... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/08/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-netanyahu-warns-of-long-and-difficult-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/08/israel-gaza-ha... On October 8 they cut all imports to Gaza, and cut off the electricity and gas supplies to the entire civilian population. That was probably a war crime by itself, as collective punishment. Palestinian hospitals reported being overwhelmed by Sunday morning. Netanyahu said civilians should all leave Gaza - without opening any exits - and promised to inflict an unprecedented price in response to the attacks. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/08/middleeast/israel-gaza-attack-hostages-response-intl-hnk https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/08/middleeast/israel-gaza-attack... What on earth does “no actions” mean to you!?!?
josephg 1y ago
Oh? Help me understand this position. If you were in charge of Israel on October 7, what would you have done differently? It sounds like there was some better course of action they could have taken that seems obvious to you. It’s not at all obvious to me. Please share.
- saagarjha 1y ago
  Maybe I would make a bad political leader but I think that responding to terrorism with total war is a bad strategy.
  - josephg 1y ago
    Its not total war. Its not Russia vs Ukraine. Gaza doesn't have an army.
- netsharc 1y ago
  If I could invent a time machine to be in charge of Israel on Oct 7, I'd try to make the time machine travel further to the past... If somehow I quantum-leapt into Netanyahu (shudder) on Oct 7, I'd tell the military to not bomb civilians indiscriminately. The bloodthirsty barbaric hardliners of the Israeli government/society would've called me/him a pussy and done a coup d'etat, either real or de facto, and I/he would've ended up in prison for the corruption. At least if it was Quantum Leap, I could leap out.
  - josephg 1y ago
    Yeah its a horrible situation, and I too am grateful I wasn't Netanyahu on Oct 7. > If somehow I quantum-leapt into Netanyahu (shudder) on Oct 7, I'd tell the military to not bomb civilians indiscriminately. They didn't bomb civilians indiscriminately. But they also didn't hold back when Hamas used civilians as human shields. (Eg Hamas put military bases underneath hospitals). Would you have held back, even if meant more of your soldiers dying? Even if it meant you might not be able to behead Hamas, or bring your people home? (Leaving Hamas alive means risking October 7 happening again.) FWIW, I don't think there's any right answer here. Just lots of wrong answers. Its weirdly symmetrical - the Palestinians also - only - had lots of wrong answers in reaction to the encroachment of Israeli settlers. The whole situation is horrible.
    - netsharc 1y ago
      > Leaving Hamas alive means risking October 7 happening again. If someone killed your family members (especially the innocent ones) and walked around with impunity and an air of moral superiority, how much revenge would be in you? > But they also didn't hold back when Hamas used civilians as human shields. No they didn't, so in my view they lose any right to claim that they're any better than the barbaric butchers they're fighting. > They didn't bomb civilians indiscriminately. Oh please, wake up, and finally admit you're accepting their lies and are lying to yourself. Oh wait, I apologize, you're right, they didn't bomb civilians "indiscriminately", they used an algorithm to figure out whom to bomb: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ > B. said that the reason for this automation was a constant push to generate more targets for assassination. “In a day without targets [whose feature rating was sufficient to authorize a strike], we attacked at a lower threshold. We were constantly being pressured: ‘Bring us more targets.’ They really shouted at us. We finished [killing] our targets very quickly.” > He explained that when lowering the rating threshold of Lavender, it would mark more people as targets for strikes. “At its peak, the system managed to generate 37,000 people as potential human targets,” said B. “But the numbers changed all the time, because it depends on where you set the bar of what a Hamas operative is.

maroonblazer 1y ago

Israel didn't take any actions until Oct 13. What actions 'from the first days' are you referring to?

lazyasciiart 1y ago
Israel was launching air strikes before noon on October 7, killing hundreds of people with those strikes that day alone. Israeli news reports on Sunday morning variously mentioned 800 strikes and more than 16 tons of munitions dropped on the Gaza Strip. https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-are-at-war-netanyahu-says-after-hamas-launches-devastating-surprise-attack/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-are-at-war-netanyahu-says-a... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/08/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-netanyahu-warns-of-long-and-difficult-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/08/israel-gaza-ha... On October 8 they cut all imports to Gaza, and cut off the electricity and gas supplies to the entire civilian population. That was probably a war crime by itself, as collective punishment. Palestinian hospitals reported being overwhelmed by Sunday morning. Netanyahu said civilians should all leave Gaza - without opening any exits - and promised to inflict an unprecedented price in response to the attacks. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/08/middleeast/israel-gaza-attack-hostages-response-intl-hnk https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/08/middleeast/israel-gaza-attack... What on earth does “no actions” mean to you!?!?

josephg 1y ago

Oh? Help me understand this position. If you were in charge of Israel on October 7, what would you have done differently? It sounds like there was some better course of action they could have taken that seems obvious to you. It’s not at all obvious to me. Please share.

saagarjha 1y ago
Maybe I would make a bad political leader but I think that responding to terrorism with total war is a bad strategy.
- josephg 1y ago
  Its not total war. Its not Russia vs Ukraine. Gaza doesn't have an army.
netsharc 1y ago
If I could invent a time machine to be in charge of Israel on Oct 7, I'd try to make the time machine travel further to the past... If somehow I quantum-leapt into Netanyahu (shudder) on Oct 7, I'd tell the military to not bomb civilians indiscriminately. The bloodthirsty barbaric hardliners of the Israeli government/society would've called me/him a pussy and done a coup d'etat, either real or de facto, and I/he would've ended up in prison for the corruption. At least if it was Quantum Leap, I could leap out.
- josephg 1y ago
  Yeah its a horrible situation, and I too am grateful I wasn't Netanyahu on Oct 7. > If somehow I quantum-leapt into Netanyahu (shudder) on Oct 7, I'd tell the military to not bomb civilians indiscriminately. They didn't bomb civilians indiscriminately. But they also didn't hold back when Hamas used civilians as human shields. (Eg Hamas put military bases underneath hospitals). Would you have held back, even if meant more of your soldiers dying? Even if it meant you might not be able to behead Hamas, or bring your people home? (Leaving Hamas alive means risking October 7 happening again.) FWIW, I don't think there's any right answer here. Just lots of wrong answers. Its weirdly symmetrical - the Palestinians also - only - had lots of wrong answers in reaction to the encroachment of Israeli settlers. The whole situation is horrible.
  - netsharc 1y ago
    > Leaving Hamas alive means risking October 7 happening again. If someone killed your family members (especially the innocent ones) and walked around with impunity and an air of moral superiority, how much revenge would be in you? > But they also didn't hold back when Hamas used civilians as human shields. No they didn't, so in my view they lose any right to claim that they're any better than the barbaric butchers they're fighting. > They didn't bomb civilians indiscriminately. Oh please, wake up, and finally admit you're accepting their lies and are lying to yourself. Oh wait, I apologize, you're right, they didn't bomb civilians "indiscriminately", they used an algorithm to figure out whom to bomb: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ > B. said that the reason for this automation was a constant push to generate more targets for assassination. “In a day without targets [whose feature rating was sufficient to authorize a strike], we attacked at a lower threshold. We were constantly being pressured: ‘Bring us more targets.’ They really shouted at us. We finished [killing] our targets very quickly.” > He explained that when lowering the rating threshold of Lavender, it would mark more people as targets for strikes. “At its peak, the system managed to generate 37,000 people as potential human targets,” said B. “But the numbers changed all the time, because it depends on where you set the bar of what a Hamas operative is.