4 ms·

Pretty much my take. I thought Israel's actions were reasonable at first but out of hand now.

by tim333 1y ago

torlok 1y ago
[flagged]
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - wredcoll 1y ago
    > Jewish people occupied the entire region long before Islam existed or Islamic Arabs took it over? And other peoples occupied the region long before judaism was an idea in some shepherd's preaching. The problem with this logic is, where do you stop. At what point do you declare "these people were the special first ones and anyone before them doesn't matter"? Much less the mental gymnastics required to believe that which human owned which land in 500bce is relevant to how to deal with things in 2025. It's not that we should ignore history, it's absolutely worth understanding how we got to the current position, but we shouldn't privilege it over the lives and wellbeing of actual people living right now.
- thenaturalist 1y ago
  [flagged]
runarberg 1y ago
[flagged]
King-Aaron 1y ago
I feel like this has been the case for decades. It is very asymmetrical.
- SauciestGNU 1y ago
  I think many people have their own personal revelation where they come to believe what Israel is doing is not self-defense but rather genocide. For me that came in the 2008/2009 Gaza offensive where they inflicted roughly 100 deaths for every Israeli who was killed in the initial attack. The Freedom Flotilla incident in early 2010 where they murdered the aid volunteers in international waters only further solidified my opinion.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
kristopolous 1y ago
Historically, any nationalist project on behalf of any group requiring large migration for it to work led to a removal and replacement of some group with another. United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, failed ones like Rhodesia...there's really no counter-example I can think of. Regardless of where you land, I don't think anyone can look at what's going on in the middle east and think things are going fine - or ever were. Perhaps, if we ever decide to act globally, we shouldn't permit any more migratory nationalist projects - they seem to be inherently problematic.
- bamboozled 1y ago
  No, people just nee to learn to live alongside eachother ffs.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - tbrownaw 1y ago
    How does this work when a group wants to move in to an area that's already completely in use by another group?
    - SR2Z 1y ago
      It's not completely in-use. The motivation for the entire state of Israel's existence is that the Jewish people need a homeland or else they will keep getting persecuted. That rules out a Muslim-majority state with a lot of Jews in it. Given the demographics of Jewish people outside of Israel, it's hard to disagree with. When you consider the early years of Israel, and how many wars were started to run the Jews out of it, it's even more well-supported. The best hope for a lasting peace was with the Oslo accords. They were torpedoed by the Palestinians themselves, who were unwilling to accept any kind of compromise that maintained a Jewish state. Not saying Israel is innocent, but the idea that so many people seem to have that the region would be happy-go-lucky and peaceful for Jewish people if not for the war is hopelessly naive.
School-Cotton 1y ago
Israel has been blockading the Gaza Strip by air and sea for 18 years. The Gaza Strip is, as far as I know, the only place in the world whose fishermen can't fish in the full extent of its territorial waters. This has been true since way before Oct. 7th 2023.
- bamboozled 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - School-Cotton 1y ago
    In the West Bank, whose Palestinian population is administered by an organization that fully collaborates with the Israeli occupation and does not engage in armed struggle, Israeli repression continues unabated (statelessness, restriction on freedom of movement, expansion of Jewish-only colonial settlements, arbitrary detention under Israeli military law, etc.) Sure, maybe if Hamas surrendered there wouldn’t be a blockade, specifically, but given the example of the West Bank right next door it’s hard to imagine that repression wouldn’t continue in some form.
    - frahs 1y ago
      Ah yes, the west bank, where they have a leader who's graduate thesis is in holocaust denial[0] and where they incentivize murdering innocent civilians[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_... Until these things lose popular support among the west bank, I don't have a ton of sympathy. Yes we can get into tracing back the chain of causation -- these people grew up in an echo chamber and they had no outside source of information, and Israeli soldiers likely killed family members of theirs unfairly when they were little, so of course they're going to say things like Death to Israel [2] and have a countdown timer until when they want to genocide the entire country [3] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_Israel [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Square_Countdown_Clock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Square_Countdown_Clo... (These examples actually stem from Iran, where most of the funding for Hamas comes from) But don't you think it's a little unfair to only defend one side with fatalistic determinism? Israelis are treated as humans who are making horrible decisions. Mahmoud Abbas is treated as a poor innocent bystander who is just the product of his environment, so of course he's going to think those things. I think he's a human too, and he has made very bad decisions too. Somehow western people always forget this stuff, but luckily the religious fanatics just love to do religious fanatical things, so it makes it easy to point to examples.
unwise-exe 1y ago
Israel's response was obvious as soon as the attack happened. "Oh, looks like they've got that excuse they've been wanting."
- literatepeople 1y ago
  It's hard to describe to people who don't have family there, but this exactly. The goal is similar to American "manifest destiny". They want to, through whatever means necessary, displace (at best) the existing Palestinian population and take their land.
  - beepbopboopp 1y ago
    Please explain to me what you mean. From my perspective, they handed over control of the region and have had countless opportunities since the handoff to occupy the land permanently had they so chosen. Couldn't it just as easily be argued that they no longer trust sharing a border with them?
    - 2muchcoffeeman 1y ago
      I feel like it would have been harder to get this far without international support had the Oct 7th attack not happened. I don’t know about you, but I’d be a bit more lenient if you’re trying to rescue civilian hostages. I don’t know anything about the impetus for the Oct 7th attack was, but you have to wonder why.
      - beepbopboopp 1y ago
        Im not following this comment. Please say it again.
  - flyinglizard 1y ago
    Israelis voted in a government 20 years ago just to pull out from Gaza and give them their autonomy (which Gazans used to swiftly vote in Hamas, and that was the single and last time they had elections since). Saying Israel was interested in that land is disingenuous.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

Pretty much my take. I thought Israel's actions were reasonable at first but out of hand now.

by tim333 1y ago

Pretty much my take. I thought Israel's actions were reasonable at first but out of hand now.

torlok 1y ago

[flagged]

SilverElfin 1y ago
[flagged]
- wredcoll 1y ago
  > Jewish people occupied the entire region long before Islam existed or Islamic Arabs took it over? And other peoples occupied the region long before judaism was an idea in some shepherd's preaching. The problem with this logic is, where do you stop. At what point do you declare "these people were the special first ones and anyone before them doesn't matter"? Much less the mental gymnastics required to believe that which human owned which land in 500bce is relevant to how to deal with things in 2025. It's not that we should ignore history, it's absolutely worth understanding how we got to the current position, but we shouldn't privilege it over the lives and wellbeing of actual people living right now.
thenaturalist 1y ago
[flagged]

runarberg 1y ago

[flagged]

King-Aaron 1y ago

I feel like this has been the case for decades. It is very asymmetrical.

SauciestGNU 1y ago
I think many people have their own personal revelation where they come to believe what Israel is doing is not self-defense but rather genocide. For me that came in the 2008/2009 Gaza offensive where they inflicted roughly 100 deaths for every Israeli who was killed in the initial attack. The Freedom Flotilla incident in early 2010 where they murdered the aid volunteers in international waters only further solidified my opinion.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

kristopolous 1y ago

Historically, any nationalist project on behalf of any group requiring large migration for it to work led to a removal and replacement of some group with another. United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, failed ones like Rhodesia...there's really no counter-example I can think of. Regardless of where you land, I don't think anyone can look at what's going on in the middle east and think things are going fine - or ever were. Perhaps, if we ever decide to act globally, we shouldn't permit any more migratory nationalist projects - they seem to be inherently problematic.

bamboozled 1y ago
No, people just nee to learn to live alongside eachother ffs.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- tbrownaw 1y ago
  How does this work when a group wants to move in to an area that's already completely in use by another group?
  - SR2Z 1y ago
    It's not completely in-use. The motivation for the entire state of Israel's existence is that the Jewish people need a homeland or else they will keep getting persecuted. That rules out a Muslim-majority state with a lot of Jews in it. Given the demographics of Jewish people outside of Israel, it's hard to disagree with. When you consider the early years of Israel, and how many wars were started to run the Jews out of it, it's even more well-supported. The best hope for a lasting peace was with the Oslo accords. They were torpedoed by the Palestinians themselves, who were unwilling to accept any kind of compromise that maintained a Jewish state. Not saying Israel is innocent, but the idea that so many people seem to have that the region would be happy-go-lucky and peaceful for Jewish people if not for the war is hopelessly naive.

School-Cotton 1y ago

Israel has been blockading the Gaza Strip by air and sea for 18 years. The Gaza Strip is, as far as I know, the only place in the world whose fishermen can't fish in the full extent of its territorial waters. This has been true since way before Oct. 7th 2023.

bamboozled 1y ago
[flagged]
- School-Cotton 1y ago
  In the West Bank, whose Palestinian population is administered by an organization that fully collaborates with the Israeli occupation and does not engage in armed struggle, Israeli repression continues unabated (statelessness, restriction on freedom of movement, expansion of Jewish-only colonial settlements, arbitrary detention under Israeli military law, etc.) Sure, maybe if Hamas surrendered there wouldn’t be a blockade, specifically, but given the example of the West Bank right next door it’s hard to imagine that repression wouldn’t continue in some form.
  - frahs 1y ago
    Ah yes, the west bank, where they have a leader who's graduate thesis is in holocaust denial[0] and where they incentivize murdering innocent civilians[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_... Until these things lose popular support among the west bank, I don't have a ton of sympathy. Yes we can get into tracing back the chain of causation -- these people grew up in an echo chamber and they had no outside source of information, and Israeli soldiers likely killed family members of theirs unfairly when they were little, so of course they're going to say things like Death to Israel [2] and have a countdown timer until when they want to genocide the entire country [3] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_Israel [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Square_Countdown_Clock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Square_Countdown_Clo... (These examples actually stem from Iran, where most of the funding for Hamas comes from) But don't you think it's a little unfair to only defend one side with fatalistic determinism? Israelis are treated as humans who are making horrible decisions. Mahmoud Abbas is treated as a poor innocent bystander who is just the product of his environment, so of course he's going to think those things. I think he's a human too, and he has made very bad decisions too. Somehow western people always forget this stuff, but luckily the religious fanatics just love to do religious fanatical things, so it makes it easy to point to examples.

unwise-exe 1y ago

Israel's response was obvious as soon as the attack happened. "Oh, looks like they've got that excuse they've been wanting."

literatepeople 1y ago
It's hard to describe to people who don't have family there, but this exactly. The goal is similar to American "manifest destiny". They want to, through whatever means necessary, displace (at best) the existing Palestinian population and take their land.
- beepbopboopp 1y ago
  Please explain to me what you mean. From my perspective, they handed over control of the region and have had countless opportunities since the handoff to occupy the land permanently had they so chosen. Couldn't it just as easily be argued that they no longer trust sharing a border with them?
  - 2muchcoffeeman 1y ago
    I feel like it would have been harder to get this far without international support had the Oct 7th attack not happened. I don’t know about you, but I’d be a bit more lenient if you’re trying to rescue civilian hostages. I don’t know anything about the impetus for the Oct 7th attack was, but you have to wonder why.
    - beepbopboopp 1y ago
      Im not following this comment. Please say it again.
- flyinglizard 1y ago
  Israelis voted in a government 20 years ago just to pull out from Gaza and give them their autonomy (which Gazans used to swiftly vote in Hamas, and that was the single and last time they had elections since). Saying Israel was interested in that land is disingenuous.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]