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Coming from a place of curiosity not knowledge with this. Is it not true that strength roughly matches testosterone levels and that is bimodal in the population

Coming from a place of curiosity not knowledge with this. Is it not true that strength roughly matches testosterone levels and that is bimodal in the population? Could what we call women’s sports today not be defined on that axis instead?

_Algernon_ 1y ago
Since the distributions overlap you are going to make a lot of people unhappy no matter where you put the cut-off.
kjkjadksj 1y ago
At that point what would actually be fair is relegating high test and low test males as well. I think we all remember that one or a couple kids in school who were a full head taller than their peers and dominated every sport in gym class as a result.
cogman10 1y ago
It's not perfectly bimodal. Some people are also more and less sensitive to testosterone. The average woman produces testosterone (I know, crazy) with some conditions like polycystic ovarian syndrome causing their testosterone production to go into overdrive. Some sports actually do test for testosterone in order to determine eligibility (I believe volleyball?) Also, interestingly enough, people that do estrogen injections end up with lower testosterone production. Estrogen also tends to (but not always!) block the effects of testosterone. Hormones are weird and how individuals react to them is all over the board. And example of that craziness is what the article refers to. People with Y chromosomes and uteruses. It's caused (AFAIK) because the fetus didn't respond to the hormones which cause the gonads to turn into male reproductive organs.
- ruszki 1y ago
  That hormone is testosterone. And that means that no matter how much testosterone those people with Y chromosome(s) get, their body cannot use them. Hence, they have a disadvantage even in women sports. In theory. The problem is that for example in women boxing these people are overrepresented. This indicates that testosterone is possibly not the only answer, and we don’t know the full picture AFAIK. But of course it’s also possible that simply Y chromosome causes changes in behavior and not physical performance, and it’s more likely that they like boxing more. We don’t know. The current best proven differentiator AFAIK is testosterone level and whether their body can process that.
jl6 1y ago
Athletic performance is correlated with testosterone levels but also with a lot of other characteristics like height, weight, muscle mass, bone density, grip strength… you could define categories based on those too, but in practice it would be a roundabout way of defining pretty much the male/female distinction we have today.

_Algernon_ 1y ago

Since the distributions overlap you are going to make a lot of people unhappy no matter where you put the cut-off.

kjkjadksj 1y ago

At that point what would actually be fair is relegating high test and low test males as well. I think we all remember that one or a couple kids in school who were a full head taller than their peers and dominated every sport in gym class as a result.

cogman10 1y ago

It's not perfectly bimodal. Some people are also more and less sensitive to testosterone. The average woman produces testosterone (I know, crazy) with some conditions like polycystic ovarian syndrome causing their testosterone production to go into overdrive. Some sports actually do test for testosterone in order to determine eligibility (I believe volleyball?) Also, interestingly enough, people that do estrogen injections end up with lower testosterone production. Estrogen also tends to (but not always!) block the effects of testosterone. Hormones are weird and how individuals react to them is all over the board. And example of that craziness is what the article refers to. People with Y chromosomes and uteruses. It's caused (AFAIK) because the fetus didn't respond to the hormones which cause the gonads to turn into male reproductive organs.

ruszki 1y ago
That hormone is testosterone. And that means that no matter how much testosterone those people with Y chromosome(s) get, their body cannot use them. Hence, they have a disadvantage even in women sports. In theory. The problem is that for example in women boxing these people are overrepresented. This indicates that testosterone is possibly not the only answer, and we don’t know the full picture AFAIK. But of course it’s also possible that simply Y chromosome causes changes in behavior and not physical performance, and it’s more likely that they like boxing more. We don’t know. The current best proven differentiator AFAIK is testosterone level and whether their body can process that.

jl6 1y ago

Athletic performance is correlated with testosterone levels but also with a lot of other characteristics like height, weight, muscle mass, bone density, grip strength… you could define categories based on those too, but in practice it would be a roundabout way of defining pretty much the male/female distinction we have today.