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Presumably the app would be able to signal the presence of an approaching car from a much longer distance than the inductive loops you typically see these syste

Presumably the app would be able to signal the presence of an approaching car from a much longer distance than the inductive loops you typically see these systems, ensuring cars don't even need to slow down when approaching the intersection. (Saving gas, brake/tire wear, and time.) It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people.

gruez 1y ago
>It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people. Assuming the procurement/contracting for said app is done competently, which seems questionable for most governments. Moreover even if it's cheaper, surely some sort of camera/sensor setup would be safer than drivers fiddling with an app?
- Ajedi32 1y ago
  I'm guessing they wouldn't need to fiddle with an app; the software would just automatically signal their approach based on GPS/navigation info. I agree theoretically a camera + machine-learning based system could work just as well; I've always wondered why that wasn't standard on traffic lights these days given that the hardware would probably cost a few hundred dollars (if procurement for said hardware were done competently, which I suppose as you said, it probably wouldn't be).
  - iamtheworstdev 1y ago
    why would you need machine learning? just detect a minimum of one bright light source, assume it's a headlight, and switch the lights. What the worse a false positive could do? this doesn't need AI
    - Ajedi32 1y ago
      Comparable systems based on inductive loops work during the day. A design based on detecting headlights wouldn't. Software/compute is cheap and as you said reliability is not a safety concern.
      - Zanfa 1y ago
        We’ve had camera-triggered intersections for years now in Estonia. They seem to work equally well in daylight as well as darkness. I don’t think you need any ML for it either, you basically only need to detect motion within a predefined region which can be done with traditional CV algos quite reliably.
  - crisnoble 1y ago
    Are we are the stage where it is normal to be giving governments always on background access to our gps location voluntarily?
    - qualeed 1y ago
      I mean, if your concern is government, your already shit out of luck between your cellphone pinging cell towers, license plate readers, CCTV cameras, Ring cameras, Wi-Fi pinging, etc. (I would agree that I wouldn't necessarily want fine-grained gps location data being sent to the lowest bidding for-profit traffic light monitoring company.)
    - Ajedi32 1y ago
      I can think of a few ways to do this in a privacy-preserving way. The traffic light doesn't need to know your location or who you are, just whether there is a car approaching. But yeah good chance whoever designed this didn't put that much thought into it.
    - hulitu 1y ago
      > Are we are the stage where it is normal to be giving governments always on background access to our gps location voluntarily? Yes. See Palantir for examples.
- helsinkiandrew 1y ago
  The drivers don’t “fiddle with an app”. The apps use geo location to notify the traffic control system when they are near an intersection. https://www.brusselstimes.com/512118/flemish-traffic-lights-will-soon-turn-green-faster-if-no-other-cars-are-around https://www.brusselstimes.com/512118/flemish-traffic-lights-... > As soon as a driver approaches an intersection with smart traffic lights, a signal is sent via their app and the cloud to the computer controlling those traffic lights.
  - robocat 1y ago
    And the reason only some maps apps work, is that Apple don't allow a background App to keep running that tracks GPS and reports location over data??? I'm guessing
    - gruez 1y ago
      AFAIK background location is opt in, but only requires the developer to check a box in their xcode project. It's not like you have fill out a form and have apple approve it or something. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation/handling-location-updates-in-the-background https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation/handl...
    - fn-mote 1y ago
      Surely the reason is that neither Apple Maps nor Google Maps is willing to add the code to interface with the special Flemish Traffic Signal API. The market is too small, and there’s no profit to be made. Unlike the “you could take an Uber” ad in Google Maps.
      - robocat 1y ago
        Yes, but why do they want to be integrated with a maps App? If it can work as a background App then why not? And if you're in charge of the Google Maps App, you know you'll get blamed for draining the battery and transmitting location data continuously. It smells like someone in Belgium is lying or is looking for a scapegoat excuse. The reasoning just doesn't sound right, technically. Is there an international standard API for this? Perhaps one used mostly for emergency services? Neither Google nor Apple would want to code crap in for every single country's weird features.

gruez 1y ago

>It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people. Assuming the procurement/contracting for said app is done competently, which seems questionable for most governments. Moreover even if it's cheaper, surely some sort of camera/sensor setup would be safer than drivers fiddling with an app?

Ajedi32 1y ago
I'm guessing they wouldn't need to fiddle with an app; the software would just automatically signal their approach based on GPS/navigation info. I agree theoretically a camera + machine-learning based system could work just as well; I've always wondered why that wasn't standard on traffic lights these days given that the hardware would probably cost a few hundred dollars (if procurement for said hardware were done competently, which I suppose as you said, it probably wouldn't be).
- iamtheworstdev 1y ago
  why would you need machine learning? just detect a minimum of one bright light source, assume it's a headlight, and switch the lights. What the worse a false positive could do? this doesn't need AI
  - Ajedi32 1y ago
    Comparable systems based on inductive loops work during the day. A design based on detecting headlights wouldn't. Software/compute is cheap and as you said reliability is not a safety concern.
    - Zanfa 1y ago
      We’ve had camera-triggered intersections for years now in Estonia. They seem to work equally well in daylight as well as darkness. I don’t think you need any ML for it either, you basically only need to detect motion within a predefined region which can be done with traditional CV algos quite reliably.
- crisnoble 1y ago
  Are we are the stage where it is normal to be giving governments always on background access to our gps location voluntarily?
  - qualeed 1y ago
    I mean, if your concern is government, your already shit out of luck between your cellphone pinging cell towers, license plate readers, CCTV cameras, Ring cameras, Wi-Fi pinging, etc. (I would agree that I wouldn't necessarily want fine-grained gps location data being sent to the lowest bidding for-profit traffic light monitoring company.)
  - Ajedi32 1y ago
    I can think of a few ways to do this in a privacy-preserving way. The traffic light doesn't need to know your location or who you are, just whether there is a car approaching. But yeah good chance whoever designed this didn't put that much thought into it.
  - hulitu 1y ago
    > Are we are the stage where it is normal to be giving governments always on background access to our gps location voluntarily? Yes. See Palantir for examples.
helsinkiandrew 1y ago
The drivers don’t “fiddle with an app”. The apps use geo location to notify the traffic control system when they are near an intersection. https://www.brusselstimes.com/512118/flemish-traffic-lights-will-soon-turn-green-faster-if-no-other-cars-are-around https://www.brusselstimes.com/512118/flemish-traffic-lights-... > As soon as a driver approaches an intersection with smart traffic lights, a signal is sent via their app and the cloud to the computer controlling those traffic lights.
- robocat 1y ago
  And the reason only some maps apps work, is that Apple don't allow a background App to keep running that tracks GPS and reports location over data??? I'm guessing
  - gruez 1y ago
    AFAIK background location is opt in, but only requires the developer to check a box in their xcode project. It's not like you have fill out a form and have apple approve it or something. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation/handling-location-updates-in-the-background https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation/handl...
  - fn-mote 1y ago
    Surely the reason is that neither Apple Maps nor Google Maps is willing to add the code to interface with the special Flemish Traffic Signal API. The market is too small, and there’s no profit to be made. Unlike the “you could take an Uber” ad in Google Maps.
    - robocat 1y ago
      Yes, but why do they want to be integrated with a maps App? If it can work as a background App then why not? And if you're in charge of the Google Maps App, you know you'll get blamed for draining the battery and transmitting location data continuously. It smells like someone in Belgium is lying or is looking for a scapegoat excuse. The reasoning just doesn't sound right, technically. Is there an international standard API for this? Perhaps one used mostly for emergency services? Neither Google nor Apple would want to code crap in for every single country's weird features.