6 ms·

what about nurses and cleaners

dmix 1y ago
Canada has legal immigration pathways for nurses, I don't see why any other country couldn't if there was strong demand. Gambling on illegal (and dangerous) border crossings to fill those sort of roles seems deeply irresponsible.
- spauldo 1y ago
  The US doesn't really have any interest in fixing the problem. Both parties benefit from the mess we have now. That's what pisses me off about the whole thing. People buy the crap the politicians are feeding them and the immigrants are the ones that pay for it. You'd think people would have realized after decades of this crap that neither party is going to do a damn thing.
OptionX 1y ago
I always find funny how the new, supposedly progressive, arguments in favor of mass immigration run so close to the ones given against when slavery was abolished, that society can only exist with cheap,exploitative, labor. Who indeed will pick the cotton.
- arrowsmith 1y ago
  Also it seems a teensy bit unfair to rob the developing world of its skilled workers so that we don't have to bother training them ourselves (plus they'll accept lower pay than natives). Aren't those nurses needed back home? https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehignett/2023/06/07/uk-hospitals-are-hiring-nurses-from-countries-that-cant-spare-them/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehignett/2023/06/07/uk-...
  - Der_Einzige 1y ago
    Unironically no because most of these countries have extremely young populations.
    - selfmodruntime 1y ago
      Unironically yes because most of these countries‘ population is sick due to low hygiene and water qualify.
    - dudeofea 1y ago
      Why do they have a young population? What happens to the old people who live in those countries? Why would that not happen in the receiving countries if enough people are imported?
      - niek_pas 1y ago
        They have a young population because their birth rates are much higher than in (e.g.,) the U.K.
        dudeofea 1y ago
        In 1950 the birth rates in Africa were higher than today. Where are those old people? https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/afr/africa/birth-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/afr/afr...
- Spivak 1y ago
  I mean I support what could be termed "mass immigration" and hold no biases as to what kinds of work they would do. I see no reason they wouldn't find work in all sorts of fields. But one of the most common talking points against this kind of immigration is that because they're "unskilled" they won't find work and be a burden on our welfare programs and social services or whatever. So then you start to list jobs that are positive value to society and don't require specialized training—that even if I accept the (admittedly racist premise) that immigrants won't seek education and skilled positions that we will still be fine.
- bakugo 1y ago
  It's because the arguments ultimately originate from the same place as they did back then: the elites who benefit greatly from the existence of said cheap, exploitative labor. The sorts of "progressives" who unconditionally support mass immigration are just useful idiots being used as tools by said elites to enforce their narrative. Just have to push the idea that "disagreeing with this is racist" and they'll all support it without question.
- mooxie 1y ago
  This is a far-right talking point that ignores the other concerns of progressives that are bundled up in the argument. Progressives (in the US at least) generally support immigration with protections and fair wages. They also recognize, rightfully, that systems built for decades upon exploitative practices (low wages, no protections) if removed overnight will cause mass disruption of those systems. Neither of these is in any way supportive of slavery, modern or otherwise. The first - suggesting that immigrants be treated civilly and paid a living wage - has been fought tooth and nail by 'free market' literalists. The second - that there will be disruptions in social and economic systems when an entire workforce is suddenly removed from the systems that it has propped up for decades - is common sense and historically founded. You're conflating these things to try to justify a talking point that was just created three months ago.
  - alexey-salmin 1y ago
    The fact remains that UK (or US) is well below the replacement rate. If your progressive society can continue to exist only because oppressed women elsewhere keep supplying the human material, then it's not that progressive after all.
  - selfmodruntime 1y ago
    Nothing in this talking point is remotely „far right“. Words have lost all meaning. You also haven‘t answered his argument one bit. In the end, all you say with your smart words is that indeed, someone has to pick the cotton and it won‘t be you.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      The "far-right" propaganda comes in when we try to argue that actually the right cares about immigrants, and they want to deport them because they just care so damn much. Like, come on now. Give me a break. This type of reasoning is so caked with bullshit I don't think anyone on the right even buys it. Sure, we can say maybe the left is arguing for exploitation, but certainly the right aren't champions of human rights. I mean, what's the big picture here? "Don't exploit the immigrants! Instead, violate their rights and force them into camps!" We can solve the immigration problem overnight, if anyone cares. Just say that if you're found hiring undocumented people, you go to prison. I garauntee you, the problem will solve itself with such expedition it will leave you in awe. But nobody on the right actually proposes this. Because they don't actually care about immigration. They care about populist messaging. They want you to believe there's an enemy within causing all your problems, and they they alone are the solution. But no - they, too, directly rely on the exploitation. They won't ever patch it. It will always be lip-service, propaganda, and populist messaging.
- jjangkke 1y ago
  Its because both the left and right argue for extremes which are just the same energy with different wording. I do not distinguish the far-left from far-right as they equally polarizing and extreme, and only seeks to pull people in the center towards them through violence, censorship and intimidation. People in the center seeks a balance between the extremes. Some industries require immigration of labor force but it can't come with delusional ideologies that seek to manipulate the wages.
  - immibis 1y ago
    You should probably differentiate between those things, because they have almost nothing in common. Even the commonalities you listed are extrinsic qualities (i.e. They are qualities of how people respond to the thing and not of the thing itself).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
spacebanana7 1y ago
The only employment related categories on that report are the skilled worker visa and the health & care worker visa. I presume nurses would come under the latter. For cleaners it's a little less clear which employment visa they'd have been more likely to use. Potentially either depending on the specifics of their job, their income and the precise definition of skilled worker.
arrowsmith 1y ago
The UK unemployment rate is 5%. That's around ~2 million people who are already here but can't find work. Do you really mean to tell me that none of those people can work as cleaners?
- mike50 1y ago
  Of course they CAN but no one with better prospects and good command of English even if you pay a great salary.
  - arrowsmith 1y ago
    If they have "better prospects", why are they unemployed?
- renewiltord 1y ago
  [flagged]
selfmodruntime 1y ago
„If we don‘t allow mass migration, who will pick the crops and wipe your mum‘s behind?“

dmix 1y ago

Canada has legal immigration pathways for nurses, I don't see why any other country couldn't if there was strong demand. Gambling on illegal (and dangerous) border crossings to fill those sort of roles seems deeply irresponsible.

spauldo 1y ago
The US doesn't really have any interest in fixing the problem. Both parties benefit from the mess we have now. That's what pisses me off about the whole thing. People buy the crap the politicians are feeding them and the immigrants are the ones that pay for it. You'd think people would have realized after decades of this crap that neither party is going to do a damn thing.

OptionX 1y ago

I always find funny how the new, supposedly progressive, arguments in favor of mass immigration run so close to the ones given against when slavery was abolished, that society can only exist with cheap,exploitative, labor. Who indeed will pick the cotton.

arrowsmith 1y ago
Also it seems a teensy bit unfair to rob the developing world of its skilled workers so that we don't have to bother training them ourselves (plus they'll accept lower pay than natives). Aren't those nurses needed back home? https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehignett/2023/06/07/uk-hospitals-are-hiring-nurses-from-countries-that-cant-spare-them/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehignett/2023/06/07/uk-...
- Der_Einzige 1y ago
  Unironically no because most of these countries have extremely young populations.
  - selfmodruntime 1y ago
    Unironically yes because most of these countries‘ population is sick due to low hygiene and water qualify.
  - dudeofea 1y ago
    Why do they have a young population? What happens to the old people who live in those countries? Why would that not happen in the receiving countries if enough people are imported?
    - niek_pas 1y ago
      They have a young population because their birth rates are much higher than in (e.g.,) the U.K.
      - dudeofea 1y ago
        In 1950 the birth rates in Africa were higher than today. Where are those old people? https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/afr/africa/birth-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/afr/afr...
Spivak 1y ago
I mean I support what could be termed "mass immigration" and hold no biases as to what kinds of work they would do. I see no reason they wouldn't find work in all sorts of fields. But one of the most common talking points against this kind of immigration is that because they're "unskilled" they won't find work and be a burden on our welfare programs and social services or whatever. So then you start to list jobs that are positive value to society and don't require specialized training—that even if I accept the (admittedly racist premise) that immigrants won't seek education and skilled positions that we will still be fine.
bakugo 1y ago
It's because the arguments ultimately originate from the same place as they did back then: the elites who benefit greatly from the existence of said cheap, exploitative labor. The sorts of "progressives" who unconditionally support mass immigration are just useful idiots being used as tools by said elites to enforce their narrative. Just have to push the idea that "disagreeing with this is racist" and they'll all support it without question.
mooxie 1y ago
This is a far-right talking point that ignores the other concerns of progressives that are bundled up in the argument. Progressives (in the US at least) generally support immigration with protections and fair wages. They also recognize, rightfully, that systems built for decades upon exploitative practices (low wages, no protections) if removed overnight will cause mass disruption of those systems. Neither of these is in any way supportive of slavery, modern or otherwise. The first - suggesting that immigrants be treated civilly and paid a living wage - has been fought tooth and nail by 'free market' literalists. The second - that there will be disruptions in social and economic systems when an entire workforce is suddenly removed from the systems that it has propped up for decades - is common sense and historically founded. You're conflating these things to try to justify a talking point that was just created three months ago.
- alexey-salmin 1y ago
  The fact remains that UK (or US) is well below the replacement rate. If your progressive society can continue to exist only because oppressed women elsewhere keep supplying the human material, then it's not that progressive after all.
- selfmodruntime 1y ago
  Nothing in this talking point is remotely „far right“. Words have lost all meaning. You also haven‘t answered his argument one bit. In the end, all you say with your smart words is that indeed, someone has to pick the cotton and it won‘t be you.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    The "far-right" propaganda comes in when we try to argue that actually the right cares about immigrants, and they want to deport them because they just care so damn much. Like, come on now. Give me a break. This type of reasoning is so caked with bullshit I don't think anyone on the right even buys it. Sure, we can say maybe the left is arguing for exploitation, but certainly the right aren't champions of human rights. I mean, what's the big picture here? "Don't exploit the immigrants! Instead, violate their rights and force them into camps!" We can solve the immigration problem overnight, if anyone cares. Just say that if you're found hiring undocumented people, you go to prison. I garauntee you, the problem will solve itself with such expedition it will leave you in awe. But nobody on the right actually proposes this. Because they don't actually care about immigration. They care about populist messaging. They want you to believe there's an enemy within causing all your problems, and they they alone are the solution. But no - they, too, directly rely on the exploitation. They won't ever patch it. It will always be lip-service, propaganda, and populist messaging.
jjangkke 1y ago
Its because both the left and right argue for extremes which are just the same energy with different wording. I do not distinguish the far-left from far-right as they equally polarizing and extreme, and only seeks to pull people in the center towards them through violence, censorship and intimidation. People in the center seeks a balance between the extremes. Some industries require immigration of labor force but it can't come with delusional ideologies that seek to manipulate the wages.
- immibis 1y ago
  You should probably differentiate between those things, because they have almost nothing in common. Even the commonalities you listed are extrinsic qualities (i.e. They are qualities of how people respond to the thing and not of the thing itself).
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

spacebanana7 1y ago

The only employment related categories on that report are the skilled worker visa and the health & care worker visa. I presume nurses would come under the latter. For cleaners it's a little less clear which employment visa they'd have been more likely to use. Potentially either depending on the specifics of their job, their income and the precise definition of skilled worker.

arrowsmith 1y ago

The UK unemployment rate is 5%. That's around ~2 million people who are already here but can't find work. Do you really mean to tell me that none of those people can work as cleaners?

mike50 1y ago
Of course they CAN but no one with better prospects and good command of English even if you pay a great salary.
- arrowsmith 1y ago
  If they have "better prospects", why are they unemployed?
renewiltord 1y ago
[flagged]

selfmodruntime 1y ago

„If we don‘t allow mass migration, who will pick the crops and wipe your mum‘s behind?“