4 ms·

"until you want to say something that is forbidden by the government." Please give a few examples. I'm intrigued.

rvnx 1y ago
Same in France, many things are forbidden to say, most of time censored, sometimes even punished (either socially or by the law). US is way way way more advanced in terms of freedom. You are allowed to say there is censorship but not allowed to say what is forbidden (and you are not allowed to criticize some laws, without breaking the law). You can really go to jail or have your life ruined, or your business burned because of a TikTok video. This censorship benefits a lot of bad people, but naming them is a crime by itself. For example, in France, there is no insecurity in the streets. If you say the opposite and start naming examples, you will get shamed or even physically attacked by some people and be prosecuted for “spreading hate” and other crimes whereas your attackers will have zero issues. This phenomenon is known as “juges rouges” (the red judges), somewhat similar to USSR
- pmezard 1y ago
  Given the US government is actually defunding major universities because "reasons", I find your comment laughable. Problem with arguing about "freedoms" is usaians still believe their constitution applies. Also, Colbert show, etc. Your take about French censorship is equally ridiculous. I would gather that 90% of French press would not survive a month in the US before being pressured/defunded or worse. What happened to Charlie Hebdo would have happened in the US, by "patriots" instead of islamists. And let's not even start about the separation of church and state...
  - rvnx 1y ago
    laughable; I would say saddening on both sides for both of us :/
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    French press is mostly owned by billionnaires, do you really believe that it's different there than in the US?
Aurornis 1y ago
In the U.K. people can be prosecuted for speech found to be offensive. There have been several high profile cases used as examples, like the guy who was convicted for making a video of his girlfriend’s dog pretending to do a Nazi salute: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meechan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meechan Doing anything considered “grossly offensive” online can result in the police knocking on your door and financial penalties. It’s a foreign concept if you’re in a country where making jokes online doesn’t constitute a risk to your freedoms and finances (which is more than just the U.S.)
- hofrogs 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - whyoh 1y ago
    I found these two: https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-mocking-transgender-pride-flag/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-george-22122018 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-ge...
    - foldr 1y ago
      I’ve had too many circular discussions of this issue on HN already, but arrests are a low bar. You can find examples of people being arrested for stupid reasons in pretty much any country if you google for it. The exact reasons might vary, but any individual police officer being a moron at any moment can lead to someone being arrested. There are also some examples of people being convicted for questionable reasons, but the UK is far from the only country with laws against hate speech. It is really the US that is the outlier in having a fundamental legal guarantee of the right to hate speech.
      - whyoh 1y ago
        Are there similar examples from Europe or the West? I know there are restrictions for promoting Nazism in some countries, but the UK seems to be an outlier when it comes to censoring offensive content in general.
johnisgood 1y ago
Communications Act 2003 Section 127(1) makes it an offence to: "Send by means of a public electronic communications network a message that is a - (a) grossly offensive, (b) indecent, obscene, or menacing, or (c) false, known to be false, for causing annoyance, inconvenience, or needless anxiety." Section 127(2) adds that: "A person is also guilty of an offence if they cause a message or other matter to be sent that is similarly offensive or menancing. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127 You can be caged on a whim.
the_other 1y ago
You can write to several climate activists in prison if you would like first hand accounts. I means ones who held up placards, rather than the ones that climbed onto trains or glued themselves to roads. Just weeks ago a couple of pop bands got hauled in front of judges or had police investigations aimed at them for voicing solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza. (Ok, so they used incediary language, but they’re 20-somethings at festivals and the Gaza situation is abhorrent). Fairly recently, an activist group which uses tactics reminiscent of the anti-nuclear-proliferation movement and animal rights movements of the 70s-90s got proscribed a terrorist organisation. At present, the law around this and recent implementations of its enforcement are such that I can’t tell if I’ll be arrested for writing this paragraph. I’ve tried to stick to the facts, but interpretation can get you locked up.
Saline9515 1y ago
Do I really need to? An Atheist who burnt a Quran in Yookay and got stabbed by a muslim as a result (proving his point?) got a 325£ fine for "religiously motivated public disorder” whatever that means. Peter Tatchell got arested by the police for holding a sign with "STOP Israel genocide! STOP Hamas executions! Odai Al-Rubai, aged 22, executed by Hamas! RIP!" because of "breach of peace" whatever that means. During the recent riots in Yookay, a man was jailed for 20 months for "shooting at a dog", and "using racist slur". While it's sure distasteful, it's no different than Putin's technique of protest repression. I could go on with Germany, where sharing benign memes about politicians lead you to get swatted and your house searched, the Yookay with its "non crime hate incidents" that require no proof, France and its extensive hate speech laws that prevent asking to boycott another state, Finland where burning the Bible is ok, but not the Quran, and so on.

rvnx 1y ago

Same in France, many things are forbidden to say, most of time censored, sometimes even punished (either socially or by the law). US is way way way more advanced in terms of freedom. You are allowed to say there is censorship but not allowed to say what is forbidden (and you are not allowed to criticize some laws, without breaking the law). You can really go to jail or have your life ruined, or your business burned because of a TikTok video. This censorship benefits a lot of bad people, but naming them is a crime by itself. For example, in France, there is no insecurity in the streets. If you say the opposite and start naming examples, you will get shamed or even physically attacked by some people and be prosecuted for “spreading hate” and other crimes whereas your attackers will have zero issues. This phenomenon is known as “juges rouges” (the red judges), somewhat similar to USSR

pmezard 1y ago
Given the US government is actually defunding major universities because "reasons", I find your comment laughable. Problem with arguing about "freedoms" is usaians still believe their constitution applies. Also, Colbert show, etc. Your take about French censorship is equally ridiculous. I would gather that 90% of French press would not survive a month in the US before being pressured/defunded or worse. What happened to Charlie Hebdo would have happened in the US, by "patriots" instead of islamists. And let's not even start about the separation of church and state...
- rvnx 1y ago
  laughable; I would say saddening on both sides for both of us :/
- Saline9515 1y ago
  French press is mostly owned by billionnaires, do you really believe that it's different there than in the US?

Aurornis 1y ago

In the U.K. people can be prosecuted for speech found to be offensive. There have been several high profile cases used as examples, like the guy who was convicted for making a video of his girlfriend’s dog pretending to do a Nazi salute: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meechan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meechan Doing anything considered “grossly offensive” online can result in the police knocking on your door and financial penalties. It’s a foreign concept if you’re in a country where making jokes online doesn’t constitute a risk to your freedoms and finances (which is more than just the U.S.)

hofrogs 1y ago
[flagged]
- whyoh 1y ago
  I found these two: https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-mocking-transgender-pride-flag/ https://www.womenarehuman.com/man-arrested-for-sharing-meme-... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-george-22122018 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-teens-who-mocked-ge...
  - foldr 1y ago
    I’ve had too many circular discussions of this issue on HN already, but arrests are a low bar. You can find examples of people being arrested for stupid reasons in pretty much any country if you google for it. The exact reasons might vary, but any individual police officer being a moron at any moment can lead to someone being arrested. There are also some examples of people being convicted for questionable reasons, but the UK is far from the only country with laws against hate speech. It is really the US that is the outlier in having a fundamental legal guarantee of the right to hate speech.
    - whyoh 1y ago
      Are there similar examples from Europe or the West? I know there are restrictions for promoting Nazism in some countries, but the UK seems to be an outlier when it comes to censoring offensive content in general.

johnisgood 1y ago

Communications Act 2003 Section 127(1) makes it an offence to: "Send by means of a public electronic communications network a message that is a - (a) grossly offensive, (b) indecent, obscene, or menacing, or (c) false, known to be false, for causing annoyance, inconvenience, or needless anxiety." Section 127(2) adds that: "A person is also guilty of an offence if they cause a message or other matter to be sent that is similarly offensive or menancing. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127 You can be caged on a whim.

the_other 1y ago

You can write to several climate activists in prison if you would like first hand accounts. I means ones who held up placards, rather than the ones that climbed onto trains or glued themselves to roads. Just weeks ago a couple of pop bands got hauled in front of judges or had police investigations aimed at them for voicing solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza. (Ok, so they used incediary language, but they’re 20-somethings at festivals and the Gaza situation is abhorrent). Fairly recently, an activist group which uses tactics reminiscent of the anti-nuclear-proliferation movement and animal rights movements of the 70s-90s got proscribed a terrorist organisation. At present, the law around this and recent implementations of its enforcement are such that I can’t tell if I’ll be arrested for writing this paragraph. I’ve tried to stick to the facts, but interpretation can get you locked up.

Saline9515 1y ago

Do I really need to? An Atheist who burnt a Quran in Yookay and got stabbed by a muslim as a result (proving his point?) got a 325£ fine for "religiously motivated public disorder” whatever that means. Peter Tatchell got arested by the police for holding a sign with "STOP Israel genocide! STOP Hamas executions! Odai Al-Rubai, aged 22, executed by Hamas! RIP!" because of "breach of peace" whatever that means. During the recent riots in Yookay, a man was jailed for 20 months for "shooting at a dog", and "using racist slur". While it's sure distasteful, it's no different than Putin's technique of protest repression. I could go on with Germany, where sharing benign memes about politicians lead you to get swatted and your house searched, the Yookay with its "non crime hate incidents" that require no proof, France and its extensive hate speech laws that prevent asking to boycott another state, Finland where burning the Bible is ok, but not the Quran, and so on.