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We're already there if you live in places like Germany or the UK. Go on social media and criticize some politicians in the UK/DE about their open borders polici

We're already there if you live in places like Germany or the UK. Go on social media and criticize some politicians in the UK/DE about their open borders policies being directly responsible for some of the terror attacks there, and there's a high chance police will knock on your door for "being a right supremacist" and for committing the "speech of hate". I think France, Italy are also following the same path. You know you don't have free speech anymore, when saying facts gets you in trouble. And this is only the beginning. It will be more and more difficult to speak against the actions of your government the more unpopular the politicians become and the more people hate the results of their policies. And instead of changing course and following the wishes of the voters, politicians instead will clamp down on free speech.

soco 1y ago
You mean France and Italy where the parties which blame open border policies are governing? Somehow the whole rightwing discourse looks to me based on scare tactics: it will be so bad, it's not yet bad but just wait and it will be! All fortune tellers in that wing indeed.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >You mean France and Italy where the parties which blame open border policies are governing? Is Le Pen governing in France and I'm not aware of? Because I've never seen Macron do that. And people are the ones blaming open borders, then some parties choose to capitalize on that (even if they ultimately do nothing), while some other parties choose to suppress that viewpoint as being right wing propaganda and that in reality there are no issue with open borders, that all the crime is imaginary, which is why they push for online censorship and anti-encryption laws, to make sure only their viewpoint becomes the only legally allowed one.
  - pydry 1y ago
    Nobody is suppressing the view that outsider migrants are the root of most evil in the west, just as nobody suppressed view that the outsider Jews are the root of most evil in the west in the 1930s. It's been a mainstream view in multiple mainstream media outlets for years.
  - sofixa 1y ago
    > while some other parties choose to suppress that viewpoint as being right wing propaganda and that in reality there are no issue with open borders To start with, there is no such thing as open borders (unless you mean Schengen?). Second, saying someone is spouting nonsense isn't "suppression". Especially when the "suppressed" viewpoint is being proudly repeated almost daily on TV, radio and online on media sponsored by billionaires investing heavily into passing this message (like Bolloré). Third, Le Pen isn't governing in France, but her party (reminder, she was banned from standing for office for corruption and stealing public money to enrich herself and her family, so it's no longer her), which has around 1/3 of the votes is crucial in maintaining the current ruling government. Without their support, the government has ~1/3 and fails a vote of no confidence immediately (the other 1/3 hates them both and would happily bring it all down in the hopes of new elections). So they are de facto exercising a lot of control.
  - soco 1y ago
    Let me underline again that with the "fortune teller". I don't take the absolute view on the internet freedom of speech, that hate speech should be allowed. As hate speech is not allowed on the playground (you get your parents called in) and not allowed on the street (you get slapped) it's not acceptable on the internet either. We can talk details, that the current implementation is faulty, and please come up with proposal how to make it better without running into the full censorship which nobody wants, but also not allowing campaigns based on straight out lying - campaigns all too pervasive nowadays (and yes in real life lying is penalized as well, so there). Or ok if you think lying and aggression on the internet should be permitted because dunno internet, at least be sincere with that and don't beat around the bush showing an imaginary boogieman.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >that hate speech should be allowed You're moving the goalposts to hate speech. When saying uncomfortable negative facts about government's actions are considered "hate speech" then you're no longer living in a free country. You must realize that. The whole hate speech can of worms is such a dangerous slippery slope since the government can just sweep all criticism of itself and its actions as "hate speech" whenever it feels like it, and just ban it, problem solved, no more criticism, all citizens are happy, just like in USSR. "Hate speech" is too broad of an umbrella to ensure it will never be used in bad faith because it 100% will be and it is. Whichever political party will come to power next will 100% gonna weaponize the existing speech censorship rules implemented by previous regimes, in its own favor to further entrench their own power. History proves this yet people are oblivious an think the solution is even more speech censorship.
      - soco 1y ago
        Like you correctly underlined, we are talking here about a slippery slope. Because all what you present is imaginary implications - in the realm of possibility, I agree, just still imaginary in this moment. Now, what could be done to avoid the slippery slope? Is the law really saying "hate speech" without any qualifications?
- rdm_blackhole 1y ago
  The National Rally is not governing in France neither is Reconquest. You might want to check your facts.
pydry 1y ago
>Go on social media and criticize some politicians in the UK/DE about their open borders policies being directly responsible for some of the terror attacks there, and there's a high chance police will knock on your door for "being a right supremacist" and for committing the "speech of hate". In the UK that happened when a woman phrased her criticism of open border policies as a call for migrant hotels to be burned down. This was controversial as many who wanted closed border policies (like Nigel Farage and supporters) thought that rallying crys to re-enact some kind of version of kristallnacht should count as protected political speech.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  I was talking about something else: Nick Griffin and Mark Collett (2004–2006) and Ann Cryer (2003) who got dragged through the courts for "race hate" for speaking up against the Muslim grooming gangs, which the political establishment brushed off as racism and hate speech, until they couldn't cover it up anymore. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6135060.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6135060.... Now it would be naive to assume the political establishment only stopped at one cover up and there's not more under the rug that haven't been yet uncovered. Just like with the post office workers scandal, you realize the political establishment doesn't exist to protect you the taxpayer, it only exists to protect itself from the accountability of its citizens and will go to great length in censorship, suppression and legal battles to defend itself, since there's nothing for them to loose if they loose, as none of them are ever going to jail for their mistakes, but if they win, then their image stays clean and can stay in power for longer.
  - kubb 1y ago
    > Mr Griffin had described Islam as a "wicked, vicious faith" I see, he was really helping his case here, sounds like a cultured and educated gentleman.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Ah yes, that totally nullifies my clients' rape charges your honor. Sure there's whiteness and DNA evidence, but he insulted their religion and since nobody ever gets away with insulting Christianity in this country, they get a free pass from the rapes as compensation for their trauma.
exe34 1y ago
> or the UK. Go on social media and criticize some politicians in the UK/DE about their open borders policies being directly responsible for some of the terror attacks there, Could you give any examples of this happening? I assume you aren't referring to the one who called for migrant hotels to be burned down with brown people inside in the middle of race riots?
- svpk 1y ago
  This is an article that I came across a while ago that speaks to a number of instances in Germany and the UK of people arrested for speech that would be considered acceptable in the states. Things like calling politicians idiots, giving the middle finger to someone, and insinuating government policy is ineffective. https://thedispatch.com/article/europe-germany-britain-free-speech-democracy-restriction/ https://thedispatch.com/article/europe-germany-britain-free-...
  - kubb 1y ago
    Yeah, none of that is criticism of policies themselves, it’s all attacks on people or individuals.
    - CamperBob2 1y ago
      "Attacks" with a middle finger?
      - kubb 1y ago
        Show me the story, and it it’s as portrayed (someone went to jail for flipping a politician off), I’ll change my mind. Until then, it’s made up. Not to mention that it’s irrelevant to the the original point about hate speech and migration but whatever, you managed to change the goalposts now defend the new ones :)
        CamperBob2 1y ago
        The OP referred to Germany. Never mind politicians, a quick search brought up a couple of cases where people faced serious penalties including driving bans for flipping off an unmanned speed camera. [1,2] Failure to pay the resulting four-figure fines would certainly have resulted in jail sentences. I can't find any backing for their assertion that people have gone to jail for obscene gestures toward government entities in either Germany or the UK, but obviously we have already slipped a long way down that particular slope. Apathy doesn't seem like the smart option. It's hard to put it any better than you did yourself: "Here the wolf is clearly visible." 1: https://driving.ca/auto-news/entertainment/middle-finger-to-speed-camera-costs-german-man-more-than-2300 https://driving.ca/auto-news/entertainment/middle-finger-to-... 2: https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/germany-news/driver-gives-middle-finger-speed-camera-and-receives-5000-euro-fine https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/germany-news/driver-gives...
martin_a 1y ago
Please link to sources where this has happend in Germany.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  https://archive.is/I53tT https://archive.is/I53tT https://www.cbsnews.com/news/germany-online-hate-speech-prosecution-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/germany-online-hate-speech-pros... https://extremism.gwu.edu/fighting-hate-speech-germany https://extremism.gwu.edu/fighting-hate-speech-germany https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/06/german-fined-e6000-for-violating-honour-of-greens-politicians/ https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/06/german-fined-e6000-for-vio... https://www.dw.com/en/german-man-receives-fine-after-insulting-politician-via-email/a-19415194 https://www.dw.com/en/german-man-receives-fine-after-insulti... https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-over-online-insult/a-70793557 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-... https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/german-woman-fined-facebook-meme-refugees/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/german-woman-fined-faceboo...
  - kubb 1y ago
    Yeah, none of these are actually about criticizing policies. All of these are cases of targeting groups of people or individuals. I guess some people just can’t grasp that distinction?
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - kubb 1y ago
        Then skip all the articles talking about your First Amendment as if it’s somehow relevant :D It’s hilarious how far you have to reach to get any criticism where I simply asked you for one, one single case of someone going to jail for criticizing policies and you just can’t provide it. Instead endlessly moving goalposts and projection of your own understanding of how laws should work. Btw the anti hate speech laws are there to prevent disasters like those from the Nazi time, and for a good reason. Speech has consequences.

soco 1y ago

You mean France and Italy where the parties which blame open border policies are governing? Somehow the whole rightwing discourse looks to me based on scare tactics: it will be so bad, it's not yet bad but just wait and it will be! All fortune tellers in that wing indeed.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>You mean France and Italy where the parties which blame open border policies are governing? Is Le Pen governing in France and I'm not aware of? Because I've never seen Macron do that. And people are the ones blaming open borders, then some parties choose to capitalize on that (even if they ultimately do nothing), while some other parties choose to suppress that viewpoint as being right wing propaganda and that in reality there are no issue with open borders, that all the crime is imaginary, which is why they push for online censorship and anti-encryption laws, to make sure only their viewpoint becomes the only legally allowed one.
- pydry 1y ago
  Nobody is suppressing the view that outsider migrants are the root of most evil in the west, just as nobody suppressed view that the outsider Jews are the root of most evil in the west in the 1930s. It's been a mainstream view in multiple mainstream media outlets for years.
- sofixa 1y ago
  > while some other parties choose to suppress that viewpoint as being right wing propaganda and that in reality there are no issue with open borders To start with, there is no such thing as open borders (unless you mean Schengen?). Second, saying someone is spouting nonsense isn't "suppression". Especially when the "suppressed" viewpoint is being proudly repeated almost daily on TV, radio and online on media sponsored by billionaires investing heavily into passing this message (like Bolloré). Third, Le Pen isn't governing in France, but her party (reminder, she was banned from standing for office for corruption and stealing public money to enrich herself and her family, so it's no longer her), which has around 1/3 of the votes is crucial in maintaining the current ruling government. Without their support, the government has ~1/3 and fails a vote of no confidence immediately (the other 1/3 hates them both and would happily bring it all down in the hopes of new elections). So they are de facto exercising a lot of control.
- soco 1y ago
  Let me underline again that with the "fortune teller". I don't take the absolute view on the internet freedom of speech, that hate speech should be allowed. As hate speech is not allowed on the playground (you get your parents called in) and not allowed on the street (you get slapped) it's not acceptable on the internet either. We can talk details, that the current implementation is faulty, and please come up with proposal how to make it better without running into the full censorship which nobody wants, but also not allowing campaigns based on straight out lying - campaigns all too pervasive nowadays (and yes in real life lying is penalized as well, so there). Or ok if you think lying and aggression on the internet should be permitted because dunno internet, at least be sincere with that and don't beat around the bush showing an imaginary boogieman.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >that hate speech should be allowed You're moving the goalposts to hate speech. When saying uncomfortable negative facts about government's actions are considered "hate speech" then you're no longer living in a free country. You must realize that. The whole hate speech can of worms is such a dangerous slippery slope since the government can just sweep all criticism of itself and its actions as "hate speech" whenever it feels like it, and just ban it, problem solved, no more criticism, all citizens are happy, just like in USSR. "Hate speech" is too broad of an umbrella to ensure it will never be used in bad faith because it 100% will be and it is. Whichever political party will come to power next will 100% gonna weaponize the existing speech censorship rules implemented by previous regimes, in its own favor to further entrench their own power. History proves this yet people are oblivious an think the solution is even more speech censorship.
    - soco 1y ago
      Like you correctly underlined, we are talking here about a slippery slope. Because all what you present is imaginary implications - in the realm of possibility, I agree, just still imaginary in this moment. Now, what could be done to avoid the slippery slope? Is the law really saying "hate speech" without any qualifications?
rdm_blackhole 1y ago
The National Rally is not governing in France neither is Reconquest. You might want to check your facts.

pydry 1y ago

>Go on social media and criticize some politicians in the UK/DE about their open borders policies being directly responsible for some of the terror attacks there, and there's a high chance police will knock on your door for "being a right supremacist" and for committing the "speech of hate". In the UK that happened when a woman phrased her criticism of open border policies as a call for migrant hotels to be burned down. This was controversial as many who wanted closed border policies (like Nigel Farage and supporters) thought that rallying crys to re-enact some kind of version of kristallnacht should count as protected political speech.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
I was talking about something else: Nick Griffin and Mark Collett (2004–2006) and Ann Cryer (2003) who got dragged through the courts for "race hate" for speaking up against the Muslim grooming gangs, which the political establishment brushed off as racism and hate speech, until they couldn't cover it up anymore. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6135060.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6135060.... Now it would be naive to assume the political establishment only stopped at one cover up and there's not more under the rug that haven't been yet uncovered. Just like with the post office workers scandal, you realize the political establishment doesn't exist to protect you the taxpayer, it only exists to protect itself from the accountability of its citizens and will go to great length in censorship, suppression and legal battles to defend itself, since there's nothing for them to loose if they loose, as none of them are ever going to jail for their mistakes, but if they win, then their image stays clean and can stay in power for longer.
- kubb 1y ago
  > Mr Griffin had described Islam as a "wicked, vicious faith" I see, he was really helping his case here, sounds like a cultured and educated gentleman.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Ah yes, that totally nullifies my clients' rape charges your honor. Sure there's whiteness and DNA evidence, but he insulted their religion and since nobody ever gets away with insulting Christianity in this country, they get a free pass from the rapes as compensation for their trauma.

exe34 1y ago

> or the UK. Go on social media and criticize some politicians in the UK/DE about their open borders policies being directly responsible for some of the terror attacks there, Could you give any examples of this happening? I assume you aren't referring to the one who called for migrant hotels to be burned down with brown people inside in the middle of race riots?

svpk 1y ago
This is an article that I came across a while ago that speaks to a number of instances in Germany and the UK of people arrested for speech that would be considered acceptable in the states. Things like calling politicians idiots, giving the middle finger to someone, and insinuating government policy is ineffective. https://thedispatch.com/article/europe-germany-britain-free-speech-democracy-restriction/ https://thedispatch.com/article/europe-germany-britain-free-...
- kubb 1y ago
  Yeah, none of that is criticism of policies themselves, it’s all attacks on people or individuals.
  - CamperBob2 1y ago
    "Attacks" with a middle finger?
    - kubb 1y ago
      Show me the story, and it it’s as portrayed (someone went to jail for flipping a politician off), I’ll change my mind. Until then, it’s made up. Not to mention that it’s irrelevant to the the original point about hate speech and migration but whatever, you managed to change the goalposts now defend the new ones :)
      - CamperBob2 1y ago
        The OP referred to Germany. Never mind politicians, a quick search brought up a couple of cases where people faced serious penalties including driving bans for flipping off an unmanned speed camera. [1,2] Failure to pay the resulting four-figure fines would certainly have resulted in jail sentences. I can't find any backing for their assertion that people have gone to jail for obscene gestures toward government entities in either Germany or the UK, but obviously we have already slipped a long way down that particular slope. Apathy doesn't seem like the smart option. It's hard to put it any better than you did yourself: "Here the wolf is clearly visible." 1: https://driving.ca/auto-news/entertainment/middle-finger-to-speed-camera-costs-german-man-more-than-2300 https://driving.ca/auto-news/entertainment/middle-finger-to-... 2: https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/germany-news/driver-gives-middle-finger-speed-camera-and-receives-5000-euro-fine https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/germany-news/driver-gives...

martin_a 1y ago

Please link to sources where this has happend in Germany.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
https://archive.is/I53tT https://archive.is/I53tT https://www.cbsnews.com/news/germany-online-hate-speech-prosecution-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/germany-online-hate-speech-pros... https://extremism.gwu.edu/fighting-hate-speech-germany https://extremism.gwu.edu/fighting-hate-speech-germany https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/06/german-fined-e6000-for-violating-honour-of-greens-politicians/ https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/06/german-fined-e6000-for-vio... https://www.dw.com/en/german-man-receives-fine-after-insulting-politician-via-email/a-19415194 https://www.dw.com/en/german-man-receives-fine-after-insulti... https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-over-online-insult/a-70793557 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-greens-habeck-presses-charges-... https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/german-woman-fined-facebook-meme-refugees/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/german-woman-fined-faceboo...
- kubb 1y ago
  Yeah, none of these are actually about criticizing policies. All of these are cases of targeting groups of people or individuals. I guess some people just can’t grasp that distinction?
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - kubb 1y ago
      Then skip all the articles talking about your First Amendment as if it’s somehow relevant :D It’s hilarious how far you have to reach to get any criticism where I simply asked you for one, one single case of someone going to jail for criticizing policies and you just can’t provide it. Instead endlessly moving goalposts and projection of your own understanding of how laws should work. Btw the anti hate speech laws are there to prevent disasters like those from the Nazi time, and for a good reason. Speech has consequences.