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> it’s hard to argue that you benefit from the tool you use being sidelined or defunded because corporate thinks nobody uses it. Let the corporation suffer the

> it’s hard to argue that you benefit from the tool you use being sidelined or defunded because corporate thinks nobody uses it. Let the corporation suffer then. With an open API, a third party will make a better one. Microsoft can buy that; corporations have a habit of doing that. > “Talk to your users” doesn’t solve this because there are millions of computers running scripts Why are you worried about the problems that scripts face? If the developer encounters issues in scripts, the developer can work to fix it. Sometimes that might mean filing a bug report... or a feature request for better documentation. Or the developer might get frustrated and use something better. Like bash. > there are millions of computers running scripts and no way to know who they are or contact them Why do they matter to you, or a corporation then? > they would not remember how often they launched it. If your users aren't interacting with you for feature requests and bug reports, then either you don't have users or you don't have good enough reachability from the users to you.

charcircuit 1y ago
>Let the corporation suffer then. Corporations provide value to others. It's not just the corporation that is missing out.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Corporations provide value to their shareholders. The things they sell and their customers are the product. They care about neither.
jodrellblank 1y ago
> "use something better. Like bash." Bash isn't better. > "Why are you worried about the problems that scripts face? Why do they matter to you?" because I write and run such scripts. > "Let the corporation suffer then" Microsoft wouldn't suffer, PowerShell users would suffer. > "sometimes that might mean filing a bug report... or a feature request for better documentation. " In this scenario the PowerShell team has been defunded or sacked. Who will the bug report go to? Who will implement the feature request? > "If your users aren't interacting with you for feature requests and bug reports, then either you don't have users or you don't have good enough reachability from the users to you." Users are interacting with Microsoft for feature requests and bug reports. There are a thousand open issues on https://github.com/powershell/powershell/ https://github.com/powershell/powershell/ and many more which were closed "due to inactivity". What difference does that make if Corporate doesn't want to fund a bigger team to fix more bugs unless it can be shown to benefit a lot of customers not just "a few" devs who raise issues?
- inetknght 1y ago
  > Bash isn't better. It is, by virtue of running on Linux. > because I write and run such scripts. 'kay. Learn how to do Engineering and the software will come just fine. You don't need telemetry to tell you anything about scripts. You need good error reports for your users to send to you instead. > Microsoft wouldn't suffer, PowerShell users would suffer. So what you're saying is that Microsoft doesn't care about its users. PowerShell users should use products from better companies then. > In this scenario the PowerShell team has been defunded or sacked. Who will the bug report go to? Who will implement the feature request? Why were they sacked? Oh, right, because they didn't interact with their users. Who will the bug report go to? Clearly it's the same as before: nobody. That's a Microsoft problem. > What difference does that make if Corporate doesn't want to fund a bigger team to fix more bugs unless it can be shown to benefit a lot of customers not just "a few" devs who raise issues? If Corporate doesn't want to fund bugfixes and features for people who actually file bug reports and talk to you, then that's poor behavior of corporate. Why do you want to contribute to the decline of your users privacy?
  - jodrellblank 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - inetknght 1y ago
      > That's good, because if running on Linux is what it takes to make something good, PowerShell is good, and has been good since before you created your HN account. Is there even a single distribution of linux with PowerShell as the default shell? No, of course not, because PowerShell does not work on Linux. It does not work with coreutils, it does not work with bash, it does not work in any way that's useful to Linux. > This does not tell you the thing I said the telemetry was added for. Try again. Or don't but if you're going to, at least understand the claim and address it. If your servers don't have users, then why are they running scripts? Your servers have users. The users are you, the server admins, whoever's consuming the data being served by them. Your users need to tell you that something is wrong, voluntarily. If you are not getting reports from your users, then you are doing it wrong. > If you are forgetting the context of the chat, you can re-read it. 'kay. Neat. Nothing was forgotten. > That is not what I am saying. A team which is fighting to get more funding so it can address more issues is demonstrating that it does care about users. > I refer you back to my previous comment where I link to the Github where you can see they are interacting with their users, and wonder why you are immediately saying the opposite and thinking that will fly. It's because you're too stubborn to recognize that you're fighting for things that harm users. A team which is fighting to get more funding, and debases themselves to do it, is not a good team. A corporation which fosters that kind of thinking is a terrible corporation. Showing github issues and PRs and stuff? Cool, good interactions. Trying to justify telemetry by tying it to funding? No, not good. Get your github issues status to be tied to your funding instead. > Were you listening at all, or were you just waiting for a chance to tell everyone you don't know what people do with computers, haven't looked, don't care, but are certain all they need is Markdown and a terminal with a tiling window editor? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I suppose Markdown came about because it's extremely simple and great for inline code / readmes when contrasted with all of the bloat that comes with HTML, or contrasted with the binary blob that is PDF. It's great and there are plenty of people who don't use Markdown. How do I know? Because I talk to people. As for a terminal with a tiling window editor? There are plenty of people who don't use terminals, and plenty of people who do. Have you sat down and talked about how and why? Have you tried to actually have conversations with multiple other developers to understand their workflows? Because if not, then you're only guessing at why people use a given thing. Telemetry doesn't solve that at all.

charcircuit 1y ago

>Let the corporation suffer then. Corporations provide value to others. It's not just the corporation that is missing out.

bayindirh 1y ago
Corporations provide value to their shareholders. The things they sell and their customers are the product. They care about neither.

jodrellblank 1y ago

> "use something better. Like bash." Bash isn't better. > "Why are you worried about the problems that scripts face? Why do they matter to you?" because I write and run such scripts. > "Let the corporation suffer then" Microsoft wouldn't suffer, PowerShell users would suffer. > "sometimes that might mean filing a bug report... or a feature request for better documentation. " In this scenario the PowerShell team has been defunded or sacked. Who will the bug report go to? Who will implement the feature request? > "If your users aren't interacting with you for feature requests and bug reports, then either you don't have users or you don't have good enough reachability from the users to you." Users are interacting with Microsoft for feature requests and bug reports. There are a thousand open issues on https://github.com/powershell/powershell/ https://github.com/powershell/powershell/ and many more which were closed "due to inactivity". What difference does that make if Corporate doesn't want to fund a bigger team to fix more bugs unless it can be shown to benefit a lot of customers not just "a few" devs who raise issues?

inetknght 1y ago
> Bash isn't better. It is, by virtue of running on Linux. > because I write and run such scripts. 'kay. Learn how to do Engineering and the software will come just fine. You don't need telemetry to tell you anything about scripts. You need good error reports for your users to send to you instead. > Microsoft wouldn't suffer, PowerShell users would suffer. So what you're saying is that Microsoft doesn't care about its users. PowerShell users should use products from better companies then. > In this scenario the PowerShell team has been defunded or sacked. Who will the bug report go to? Who will implement the feature request? Why were they sacked? Oh, right, because they didn't interact with their users. Who will the bug report go to? Clearly it's the same as before: nobody. That's a Microsoft problem. > What difference does that make if Corporate doesn't want to fund a bigger team to fix more bugs unless it can be shown to benefit a lot of customers not just "a few" devs who raise issues? If Corporate doesn't want to fund bugfixes and features for people who actually file bug reports and talk to you, then that's poor behavior of corporate. Why do you want to contribute to the decline of your users privacy?
- jodrellblank 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - inetknght 1y ago
    > That's good, because if running on Linux is what it takes to make something good, PowerShell is good, and has been good since before you created your HN account. Is there even a single distribution of linux with PowerShell as the default shell? No, of course not, because PowerShell does not work on Linux. It does not work with coreutils, it does not work with bash, it does not work in any way that's useful to Linux. > This does not tell you the thing I said the telemetry was added for. Try again. Or don't but if you're going to, at least understand the claim and address it. If your servers don't have users, then why are they running scripts? Your servers have users. The users are you, the server admins, whoever's consuming the data being served by them. Your users need to tell you that something is wrong, voluntarily. If you are not getting reports from your users, then you are doing it wrong. > If you are forgetting the context of the chat, you can re-read it. 'kay. Neat. Nothing was forgotten. > That is not what I am saying. A team which is fighting to get more funding so it can address more issues is demonstrating that it does care about users. > I refer you back to my previous comment where I link to the Github where you can see they are interacting with their users, and wonder why you are immediately saying the opposite and thinking that will fly. It's because you're too stubborn to recognize that you're fighting for things that harm users. A team which is fighting to get more funding, and debases themselves to do it, is not a good team. A corporation which fosters that kind of thinking is a terrible corporation. Showing github issues and PRs and stuff? Cool, good interactions. Trying to justify telemetry by tying it to funding? No, not good. Get your github issues status to be tied to your funding instead. > Were you listening at all, or were you just waiting for a chance to tell everyone you don't know what people do with computers, haven't looked, don't care, but are certain all they need is Markdown and a terminal with a tiling window editor? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I suppose Markdown came about because it's extremely simple and great for inline code / readmes when contrasted with all of the bloat that comes with HTML, or contrasted with the binary blob that is PDF. It's great and there are plenty of people who don't use Markdown. How do I know? Because I talk to people. As for a terminal with a tiling window editor? There are plenty of people who don't use terminals, and plenty of people who do. Have you sat down and talked about how and why? Have you tried to actually have conversations with multiple other developers to understand their workflows? Because if not, then you're only guessing at why people use a given thing. Telemetry doesn't solve that at all.