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The European union never ceases to amaze me. Whatever happened to becoming less dependent on American corporations? They flip flop on this stuff at least onc

The European union never ceases to amaze me. Whatever happened to becoming less dependent on American corporations? They flip flop on this stuff at least once a month, and the most annoying part is that they always herald everything they do as some new epoch-defining initiative only to quietly forget about it and do the opposite a few months later. If nation states are dogs, then EU is the chihuahua: loud, proud and extremely ineffective.

alephnerd 1y ago
> They flip flop on this stuff at least once a month Because in the background it's a French vs German vs Irish vs Czech vs $insert_eu_state business interests competing with each other. Notice how it's almost always French legislators and businesses that mention "domestic EU tech" and not Polish, Czech, Romanian, Dutch, or even German policymakers or businesses? That's why. National interests always end up trumping the EU in it's current form. And for a large portion of the EU, American BigTech represents the majority of FDI (tech and overall). Japanese and Korean automotive players did the same thing with the US in the 1980s-90s in order to ensure their interests remained aligned (though the Plaza Accords did play a role)
- BLKNSLVR 1y ago
  France has some history in being disappointed by the US, so it doesn't really surprise me that France is beating the independence drum the loudest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px9qhDGv300&t=150s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px9qhDGv300&t=150s. (the entire video is interesting and informative, I've skipped it to the France-US specific part, up to about 11:02 where Australia is introduced as the US sycophant it is) Whether it's logical or not, offences past, even those thought forgotten, are easily recalled when under similar pressures.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > Whether it's logical or not From an American NatSec perspective, French strategic autonomy is viewed as a positive, as can be seen with Elbridge Colby's work (and similar work by Mastro and Doshi), and a lot of the initiatives led by the Biden admin, as this would allow burden sharing because the US is no longer in a position to manage a two continent war. France does our dirty work in the Sahel and can help in the Indo-Pac (as was seen with the US, France, and India jointly armtwisting the UK into ceding Diego Garcia to Marutius) In Australia's case (and to the US's benefit), alignment with France makes sense and has been something that has come up in Australian NatSec for years. New Caledonia is barely 800 miles off the coast of Australia and NZ, and both New Caledonia and French Polynesia have faced pressure due to China, especially after the recent violence in New Caledonia was linked to Azeri [5] disinfo networks on TikTok, along with decades of covert ops by China in New Caledonia [6][7]. France has also been an active defense partner with India and Indonesia - both of whom are increasingly cornerstones of Australian defense. By every single standard, having an active "Indo-Pac" France is a net benefit for America+ strategy and Taiwan. That said, French NatSec "strategic autonomy" does not have anything to do with French industry's alignment with marketing a "European first" tech story. France has similar issues to the US with power politics (as can be seen with France, US, SK, and Israel sharing a similar CPI score), and the biggest booster and beneficiary for "European Tech" is Xavier Niel [0] (France's Mark Cuban or Elon Musk), who is on a first-name basis with Macron [1][2] and whose Father-in-Law (Bernard Arnault) has personally played a significant role in French power politics for years [3][4]. Arnault is also the reason why every country negotiating with the EU ALWAYS tariffs congac and champagne - Arnault's LVMH owns Hennessy and all the other congac producers, and the majority of champagne producers. End of the day, this is just another inter-elite conflict between vested business interests like any other, but couched with the flag of nationalism. Nothing wrong with that, but this is why you don't see alignment amongst EU member states - as each state is supporting their own vested business interests amidst a trade war. For example, there's a reason all of us American tech investors end up working with the same handful of politically aligned law firms in Czechia or ending up in the same IT Parks in Eastern Europe. [0] - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-02-12/xavier-niel-s-not-ready-to-throw-in-the-towel-on-ai https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-02-12/xavier... [1] - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/12/22/emmanuel-macron-s-art-of-secrecy_6736366_5.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/12/22/emmanu... [2] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-22/french-mindset-shift-under-macron-poised-to-boost-startups-levy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-22/french-mi... [3] - https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/insight-macron-moguls-inside-fight-over-french-fox-news-2020-12-17/ https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/insight-macro... [4] - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/08/08/bernard-arnault-and-the-most-powerful-address-book-in-france_6085516_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/08/08/bernard... [5] - https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/russia-azerbaijan-exploit-new-caledonian-strife-against-france-china-stays-mum/ https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/russia-azerbaijan-exploit-... [6] - https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-caledonia/ https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-ca... [7] - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/pixels/article/2024/05/16/why-and-how-tiktok-was-banned-in-new-caledonia_6671655_13.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/pixels/article/2024/05/16/why-and-...
    - pyrale 1y ago
      > From an American NatSec perspective, French strategic autonomy is viewed as a positive Sometimes. And then, the outcome of that autonomy is that France makes a decision that doesn't please the US, and the US goes ape.
    - robk 1y ago
      Why is Diego Garcia to Mauritius good for the USA?
      - alephnerd 1y ago
        It's easier for the US to manage the relationship with Marutius instead of with the UK [0] while buying favor from India and France [1]. It also aligns with Mastro, Doshi, and Colby's doctrine around the US retrenching in the Indo-Pac and the UK concentrating on the European continent [2] as the US increasingly cannot guarantee boots on the ground in Europe and Asia at the same time. With the UK in the Indo-Pac, British supply chains would be stretched with marginal benefit for the US in an Asian theatre, but the same resources spent on BIOT could be better spent on British possessions in Cyprus, bases in the Middle East, and the North Atlantic. [0] - https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/decolonise-diego-garcia-why-america-should-not-fear-mauritius https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/decolonise-die... [1] - https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/uk-mauritius-chagos-deal-removes-risk-from-diego-garcia-base/ https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/uk-mauritius-chagos-deal-r... [2] - https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2025/03/24/its-time-to-reverse-europes-pivots-to-asia/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2025/03/24/its-time-to-re...
- eddythompson80 1y ago
  One wonders how much of the French foreign policy is affected by an online influencer trolling campaign.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    Pretty significantly actually. For example, the violence in New Caledonia was instigated on TikTok by Azeri disinfo networks [0][1] due to French support of Armenia, which itself is due to French support for Greece+Cyprus against Turkiye, who is the primary patron for Azerbaijan. Algeria has been doing something similar [2] due to French support of Morocco, and China's UFWD aligned groups have done something similar in the French Pacific [3] Unless you're insisting I'm a troll or a bot, which I strongly disagree with. I've worked closely with EMEA (and especially French institutions and businesses) in my current career and previously when I worked in the policy space. I just kvetch on HN because it's not significantly on any radar yet and the anonymity is appreciated. [0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/france-accuse-azerbaijan-fomenting-deadly-riot-overseas-territory-new-caledonia/ https://www.politico.eu/article/france-accuse-azerbaijan-fom... [1] - https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/expressions/azerbaijans-information-warfare-against-france https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/expressions/azerbaijans... [2] - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-roots-of-recent-algeria-france-tensions-are-deeper-than-it-may-seem/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-roots-o... [3] - https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-caledonia/ https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-ca...
    - perihelions 1y ago
      I would push back on this. That is in large part French propaganda in service of French interests—manufacturing consent for continuing French imperialism over their maltreated colonies; and delegitimizing narratives that speak counter to that—delegitimizing the political voice of the people actually living there. Which they do flagrantly: the French mainland government has done wide-scale internet censorship in New Caledonia[0,1] to suppress anti-French-government speech—a human rights atrocity. That's not to claim there's no foreign interference. I'm sure there's a large kernel of truth in that French claim. But hammering on that point is a form of dehumanization: it's to say people who disagree you, having been misled, no longer have the right to a voice, and are fair game to be silenced. That's atrocity. That's bad-faith rationalization by an actor pointing authoritarian weapons at their adversary, which they were intending to do anyway. It's difficult to speak with nuance on this dilemma: that every political debate in existence, today, is saturated with bad-faith actors, allying with both sides. But people tend to view this through one lens, selectively amplifying the bad-faith on the other side—as if it entirely invalidates them, instantly wins the debate—while minimizing it on their own side. If you don't want your voice silenced because of what other people, who are not you, said—you should not advocate doing that to other people. If you don't to wake up one day with all your favored newspapers and media sites blocked by government order—you should not wish for that to happen to other people. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/french-tiktok-ban-new-caledonia-overseas-territory-dangerous-precedent-macron-eu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/french-tiktok-ban-new-caledo... ("French TikTok block in overseas territory sets ‘dangerous precedent,’ critics warn") [1] https://www.euractiv.com/section/tech/news/french-court-voids-new-caledonia-tiktok-ban/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/tech/news/french-court-void... ("A French court ruled today that last year's ban on TikTok in New Caledonia was illegal and disproportionately infringed rights and freedoms")
wting 1y ago
Because of goomba fallacy. The EU is not a hegemonic state, but rather an economic supranational organization. France/Germany tend to be primary proponents of increased EU strategic autonomy, while Poland/Czech/Baltic states are less supportive. Similar to recent discussions of self-hosting, it's a tradeoff of autonomy/control vs efficiency.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > Germany tend to be primary proponents of increased EU strategic autonomy Germany isn't doing this as much anymore, because Germany Inc has become increasingly dependent on their investments within the US [0], especially after the triple whammy of the Biden-era IRA [1], the sanctions on Russia sparking a domestic energy crisis [2], and Chinese players outcompeting German industry in China [3]. This can be seen with Germany purchasing American weapons for Ukraine over French objections [4] [0] - https://flow.db.com/more/macro-and-markets/us-german-trade-ramps-up https://flow.db.com/more/macro-and-markets/us-german-trade-r... [1] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-14/german-go-it-alone-response-to-biden-s-ira-sets-off-alarm-for-eu https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-14/german-go... [2] - https://oec.world/en/blog/bavarias-dependency-on-russian-gas-runs-deep https://oec.world/en/blog/bavarias-dependency-on-russian-gas... [3] - https://www.reuters.com/business/majority-german-firms-feel-unfair-competition-china-commerce-chamber-says-2024-04-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/majority-german-firms-feel-... [4] - https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-donald-trump-weapons-aid-war-in-ukraine-nato/ https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-donald-trump-weapons-...
- wkat4242 1y ago
  > Because of goomba fallacy. > The EU is not a hegemonic state, but rather an economic supranational organization. France/Germany tend to be primary proponents of increased EU strategic autonomy, while Poland/Czech/Baltic states are less supportive. Well obviously, these states know how bad the Russians are since they were terrorised by them for decades. They'll be the first on the chopping block. And they know that Europe does not have much deterrent of its own right now so they're screwed without the US. Though this will come.
  - 1y ago
wmf 1y ago
95% of Europeans are running American OSes today. Should age verification just wait 20 years for EurOS to be deployed?
- queenkjuul 1y ago
  They could just choose not to depend on OS level verification tools
- nemomarx 1y ago
  what's the rush on age verification? why does it need to happen now and not in a decade after working on digital ID and battle testing that etc?
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    Because it's a conservative talking point. And they're appeasing them with all the extreme right parties popping up all over Europe
    - rixed 1y ago
      The role played in the US by grassroot conservative bigots have no equivalent in the EU. The push for authoritarianism seems to come purely from above. My intuition, from personal anecdotes, is that after 30 years of widening gap between the haves and the have nots, the haves are increasingly terrified buy their own populations.
      - wkat4242 1y ago
        Unfortunately these bigots are also active in europe. Especially that org from Ashley Kutcher. They have several EU Commission members actively listening to them. This is where all the ChatControl idiocy comes from. I agree there's ulterior motives too though.
    - nsksl 1y ago
      Age verification is not a conservative talking point in Europe. I live in Western Europe where conservatives simply do not exist and the government is trying to push an age verification solution too.
ajsnigrutin 1y ago
EU is a great chihuahua, authoritarian laws get passed, national politicians say that there's nothing they can do, but they benefit greatly from all the new posibilities of control over the internet. I mean.. great for the politicians, not for an average european.
Aachen 1y ago
Ineffective? Extremely so? From open borders to open roaming to the various legislation that my tiny country would never be able to force corporations into if we didn't have it at the EU level. Heck, the currency. There's so many aspects I take for granted in life and don't even think about anymore. I can just pay anywhere without thinking or conversion fees. Must have been amazing for trade though it's nearly as old as I am so I don't know how things were before. How in the world you come to a worldview of the EU being extremely ineffective, I cannot imagine. Are you from the EU?
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Ineffective against the US corporations. The European commission, the top of the EU's unelected and mostly unchecked bureaucracy, is currently suing its data protection office after it declared that its use of Microsoft 365 infringes data protection laws. I mean, the EU wants to force browsers to recognize its own web certificates, while allowing Google to selectively deactivate your phone's capacity to conduct ID checks. It's the same with the "EU Cloud initiative", that at the end was full of non-EU companies. The aim of the EU bureaucracy is not sovereignty, but extension of its power, nowadays called as "regulation". And when in place, it can't be removed, even if it's clearly self-harming.
- reaperducer 1y ago
  From open borders Better check on that. There was an article in the New York Times last week about how many E.U. countries have actually gone back to border checks. Most recently, Germany and Poland.
  - SirHumphrey 1y ago
    But border checks in the EU are a bit more relaxed. Sometimes they just wave you through - other times you just show your government id (which in many EU countries you are required to carry at all times) and they maybe check the car boot. The border is still very much open.
  - Aachen 1y ago
    Yeah, I'm not sure how to directly fight it yet (besides voting as I've always done) but I'm avoiding border queues on a weekly basis now. It's a shame, but for now you can still drive right through on a dozen other border points, just not the highway France apparently also had this around their Olympics or soccer world cup or something. It's not unique and so far it has always been a fad, usually to please nationalist voters for a while And it doesn't negate the broader point
sunshine-o 1y ago
You need to put yourself in the EU governing people shoes for a minute. Their predecessors, who were from the WW2 and Silent generations, did not care about the free Internet because they relied on the large mainstream media consuming baby boomers. They had a direct line to them. But the boomers are between 60 and 80 and vanishing. The following generations are in panic mode. So until recently the "free" Internet did not matter politically in the EU. Tech was used to trigger color revolutions abroad where the demographics were younger. But now the unelected EU commission inherited that Internet things and are on the wrong side of it. Worst almost everybody in the EU speaks English and listen to Joe Rogan & co. And while the US Gov might be able to control the Joe Rogan type the EU does not. So their only move is to crack down on the Internet and limit it with a Chinese firewall type system. But they obviously do not have the ability to do so without the capabilities of an US tech giant (remember their own systems are on Office 365, every phone is Android or Apple). And this would also be in the interest of the US because it would give them a solid control over the EU. Remember the first goal of a system is to survive and I do not see another realistic path.
- Y_Y 1y ago
  > almost everybody in the EU speaks English and listen to Joe Rogan & co. Is this meant as a joke? It's not even remotely plausible.
  - sunshine-o 1y ago
    A few decades ago, Europeans would usually learn another European language, often for economic migration purpose. But the "Internet generations" learned English early and ... on the Internet. I only mentioned Joe Rogan because it is the most popular, but all the big american podcasts are very popular in Europe. Also the lines between entertainment and politics have been blurred and Europeans follow much more what Trump says than let's say Ursula. Also, why do you think the Macrons are suing Candace Owen? She is an niche podcaster with a show on Rumble (a platform which in a way blocked in France). Would Helmut Kohl have been threatened in his own country by what Alex Jones was saying in the 90s?
pyrale 1y ago
On one hand, there is a will from some people to be less dependent. On the other hand, the EU bodies as well as national reps are besieged by lobbyists and diplomats, and without much backlash from constituents, it's very hard not to find someone that will do what you want. Just look at this former EC commissioner [1] working for Uber. Flip-floping happens occasionally when the public catches up. [1]: https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/opening-summary/en/181717 https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/opening-summary/en/181717
Smithalicious 1y ago
If nation states are dogs, then the EU is the parrot: loud, proud, and not a dog.
tim333 1y ago
Trouble with your key strength being regulating is you need someone else to make stuff.

alephnerd 1y ago

> They flip flop on this stuff at least once a month Because in the background it's a French vs German vs Irish vs Czech vs $insert_eu_state business interests competing with each other. Notice how it's almost always French legislators and businesses that mention "domestic EU tech" and not Polish, Czech, Romanian, Dutch, or even German policymakers or businesses? That's why. National interests always end up trumping the EU in it's current form. And for a large portion of the EU, American BigTech represents the majority of FDI (tech and overall). Japanese and Korean automotive players did the same thing with the US in the 1980s-90s in order to ensure their interests remained aligned (though the Plaza Accords did play a role)

BLKNSLVR 1y ago
France has some history in being disappointed by the US, so it doesn't really surprise me that France is beating the independence drum the loudest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px9qhDGv300&t=150s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px9qhDGv300&t=150s. (the entire video is interesting and informative, I've skipped it to the France-US specific part, up to about 11:02 where Australia is introduced as the US sycophant it is) Whether it's logical or not, offences past, even those thought forgotten, are easily recalled when under similar pressures.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > Whether it's logical or not From an American NatSec perspective, French strategic autonomy is viewed as a positive, as can be seen with Elbridge Colby's work (and similar work by Mastro and Doshi), and a lot of the initiatives led by the Biden admin, as this would allow burden sharing because the US is no longer in a position to manage a two continent war. France does our dirty work in the Sahel and can help in the Indo-Pac (as was seen with the US, France, and India jointly armtwisting the UK into ceding Diego Garcia to Marutius) In Australia's case (and to the US's benefit), alignment with France makes sense and has been something that has come up in Australian NatSec for years. New Caledonia is barely 800 miles off the coast of Australia and NZ, and both New Caledonia and French Polynesia have faced pressure due to China, especially after the recent violence in New Caledonia was linked to Azeri [5] disinfo networks on TikTok, along with decades of covert ops by China in New Caledonia [6][7]. France has also been an active defense partner with India and Indonesia - both of whom are increasingly cornerstones of Australian defense. By every single standard, having an active "Indo-Pac" France is a net benefit for America+ strategy and Taiwan. That said, French NatSec "strategic autonomy" does not have anything to do with French industry's alignment with marketing a "European first" tech story. France has similar issues to the US with power politics (as can be seen with France, US, SK, and Israel sharing a similar CPI score), and the biggest booster and beneficiary for "European Tech" is Xavier Niel [0] (France's Mark Cuban or Elon Musk), who is on a first-name basis with Macron [1][2] and whose Father-in-Law (Bernard Arnault) has personally played a significant role in French power politics for years [3][4]. Arnault is also the reason why every country negotiating with the EU ALWAYS tariffs congac and champagne - Arnault's LVMH owns Hennessy and all the other congac producers, and the majority of champagne producers. End of the day, this is just another inter-elite conflict between vested business interests like any other, but couched with the flag of nationalism. Nothing wrong with that, but this is why you don't see alignment amongst EU member states - as each state is supporting their own vested business interests amidst a trade war. For example, there's a reason all of us American tech investors end up working with the same handful of politically aligned law firms in Czechia or ending up in the same IT Parks in Eastern Europe. [0] - https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-02-12/xavier-niel-s-not-ready-to-throw-in-the-towel-on-ai https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2025-02-12/xavier... [1] - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/12/22/emmanuel-macron-s-art-of-secrecy_6736366_5.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/politics/article/2024/12/22/emmanu... [2] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-22/french-mindset-shift-under-macron-poised-to-boost-startups-levy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-22/french-mi... [3] - https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/insight-macron-moguls-inside-fight-over-french-fox-news-2020-12-17/ https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/insight-macro... [4] - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/08/08/bernard-arnault-and-the-most-powerful-address-book-in-france_6085516_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2023/08/08/bernard... [5] - https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/russia-azerbaijan-exploit-new-caledonian-strife-against-france-china-stays-mum/ https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/russia-azerbaijan-exploit-... [6] - https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-caledonia/ https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-ca... [7] - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/pixels/article/2024/05/16/why-and-how-tiktok-was-banned-in-new-caledonia_6671655_13.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/pixels/article/2024/05/16/why-and-...
  - pyrale 1y ago
    > From an American NatSec perspective, French strategic autonomy is viewed as a positive Sometimes. And then, the outcome of that autonomy is that France makes a decision that doesn't please the US, and the US goes ape.
  - robk 1y ago
    Why is Diego Garcia to Mauritius good for the USA?
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      It's easier for the US to manage the relationship with Marutius instead of with the UK [0] while buying favor from India and France [1]. It also aligns with Mastro, Doshi, and Colby's doctrine around the US retrenching in the Indo-Pac and the UK concentrating on the European continent [2] as the US increasingly cannot guarantee boots on the ground in Europe and Asia at the same time. With the UK in the Indo-Pac, British supply chains would be stretched with marginal benefit for the US in an Asian theatre, but the same resources spent on BIOT could be better spent on British possessions in Cyprus, bases in the Middle East, and the North Atlantic. [0] - https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/decolonise-diego-garcia-why-america-should-not-fear-mauritius https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/decolonise-die... [1] - https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/uk-mauritius-chagos-deal-removes-risk-from-diego-garcia-base/ https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/uk-mauritius-chagos-deal-r... [2] - https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2025/03/24/its-time-to-reverse-europes-pivots-to-asia/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2025/03/24/its-time-to-re...
eddythompson80 1y ago
One wonders how much of the French foreign policy is affected by an online influencer trolling campaign.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  Pretty significantly actually. For example, the violence in New Caledonia was instigated on TikTok by Azeri disinfo networks [0][1] due to French support of Armenia, which itself is due to French support for Greece+Cyprus against Turkiye, who is the primary patron for Azerbaijan. Algeria has been doing something similar [2] due to French support of Morocco, and China's UFWD aligned groups have done something similar in the French Pacific [3] Unless you're insisting I'm a troll or a bot, which I strongly disagree with. I've worked closely with EMEA (and especially French institutions and businesses) in my current career and previously when I worked in the policy space. I just kvetch on HN because it's not significantly on any radar yet and the anonymity is appreciated. [0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/france-accuse-azerbaijan-fomenting-deadly-riot-overseas-territory-new-caledonia/ https://www.politico.eu/article/france-accuse-azerbaijan-fom... [1] - https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/expressions/azerbaijans-information-warfare-against-france https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/expressions/azerbaijans... [2] - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-roots-of-recent-algeria-france-tensions-are-deeper-than-it-may-seem/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-roots-o... [3] - https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-caledonia/ https://www.aspi.org.au/report/when-china-knocks-door-new-ca...
  - perihelions 1y ago
    I would push back on this. That is in large part French propaganda in service of French interests—manufacturing consent for continuing French imperialism over their maltreated colonies; and delegitimizing narratives that speak counter to that—delegitimizing the political voice of the people actually living there. Which they do flagrantly: the French mainland government has done wide-scale internet censorship in New Caledonia[0,1] to suppress anti-French-government speech—a human rights atrocity. That's not to claim there's no foreign interference. I'm sure there's a large kernel of truth in that French claim. But hammering on that point is a form of dehumanization: it's to say people who disagree you, having been misled, no longer have the right to a voice, and are fair game to be silenced. That's atrocity. That's bad-faith rationalization by an actor pointing authoritarian weapons at their adversary, which they were intending to do anyway. It's difficult to speak with nuance on this dilemma: that every political debate in existence, today, is saturated with bad-faith actors, allying with both sides. But people tend to view this through one lens, selectively amplifying the bad-faith on the other side—as if it entirely invalidates them, instantly wins the debate—while minimizing it on their own side. If you don't want your voice silenced because of what other people, who are not you, said—you should not advocate doing that to other people. If you don't to wake up one day with all your favored newspapers and media sites blocked by government order—you should not wish for that to happen to other people. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/french-tiktok-ban-new-caledonia-overseas-territory-dangerous-precedent-macron-eu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/french-tiktok-ban-new-caledo... ("French TikTok block in overseas territory sets ‘dangerous precedent,’ critics warn") [1] https://www.euractiv.com/section/tech/news/french-court-voids-new-caledonia-tiktok-ban/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/tech/news/french-court-void... ("A French court ruled today that last year's ban on TikTok in New Caledonia was illegal and disproportionately infringed rights and freedoms")

wting 1y ago

Because of goomba fallacy. The EU is not a hegemonic state, but rather an economic supranational organization. France/Germany tend to be primary proponents of increased EU strategic autonomy, while Poland/Czech/Baltic states are less supportive. Similar to recent discussions of self-hosting, it's a tradeoff of autonomy/control vs efficiency.

alephnerd 1y ago
> Germany tend to be primary proponents of increased EU strategic autonomy Germany isn't doing this as much anymore, because Germany Inc has become increasingly dependent on their investments within the US [0], especially after the triple whammy of the Biden-era IRA [1], the sanctions on Russia sparking a domestic energy crisis [2], and Chinese players outcompeting German industry in China [3]. This can be seen with Germany purchasing American weapons for Ukraine over French objections [4] [0] - https://flow.db.com/more/macro-and-markets/us-german-trade-ramps-up https://flow.db.com/more/macro-and-markets/us-german-trade-r... [1] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-14/german-go-it-alone-response-to-biden-s-ira-sets-off-alarm-for-eu https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-14/german-go... [2] - https://oec.world/en/blog/bavarias-dependency-on-russian-gas-runs-deep https://oec.world/en/blog/bavarias-dependency-on-russian-gas... [3] - https://www.reuters.com/business/majority-german-firms-feel-unfair-competition-china-commerce-chamber-says-2024-04-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/majority-german-firms-feel-... [4] - https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-donald-trump-weapons-aid-war-in-ukraine-nato/ https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-donald-trump-weapons-...
wkat4242 1y ago
> Because of goomba fallacy. > The EU is not a hegemonic state, but rather an economic supranational organization. France/Germany tend to be primary proponents of increased EU strategic autonomy, while Poland/Czech/Baltic states are less supportive. Well obviously, these states know how bad the Russians are since they were terrorised by them for decades. They'll be the first on the chopping block. And they know that Europe does not have much deterrent of its own right now so they're screwed without the US. Though this will come.
- 1y ago

wmf 1y ago

95% of Europeans are running American OSes today. Should age verification just wait 20 years for EurOS to be deployed?

queenkjuul 1y ago
They could just choose not to depend on OS level verification tools
nemomarx 1y ago
what's the rush on age verification? why does it need to happen now and not in a decade after working on digital ID and battle testing that etc?
- wkat4242 1y ago
  Because it's a conservative talking point. And they're appeasing them with all the extreme right parties popping up all over Europe
  - rixed 1y ago
    The role played in the US by grassroot conservative bigots have no equivalent in the EU. The push for authoritarianism seems to come purely from above. My intuition, from personal anecdotes, is that after 30 years of widening gap between the haves and the have nots, the haves are increasingly terrified buy their own populations.
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      Unfortunately these bigots are also active in europe. Especially that org from Ashley Kutcher. They have several EU Commission members actively listening to them. This is where all the ChatControl idiocy comes from. I agree there's ulterior motives too though.
  - nsksl 1y ago
    Age verification is not a conservative talking point in Europe. I live in Western Europe where conservatives simply do not exist and the government is trying to push an age verification solution too.

ajsnigrutin 1y ago

EU is a great chihuahua, authoritarian laws get passed, national politicians say that there's nothing they can do, but they benefit greatly from all the new posibilities of control over the internet. I mean.. great for the politicians, not for an average european.

Aachen 1y ago

Ineffective? Extremely so? From open borders to open roaming to the various legislation that my tiny country would never be able to force corporations into if we didn't have it at the EU level. Heck, the currency. There's so many aspects I take for granted in life and don't even think about anymore. I can just pay anywhere without thinking or conversion fees. Must have been amazing for trade though it's nearly as old as I am so I don't know how things were before. How in the world you come to a worldview of the EU being extremely ineffective, I cannot imagine. Are you from the EU?

Saline9515 1y ago
Ineffective against the US corporations. The European commission, the top of the EU's unelected and mostly unchecked bureaucracy, is currently suing its data protection office after it declared that its use of Microsoft 365 infringes data protection laws. I mean, the EU wants to force browsers to recognize its own web certificates, while allowing Google to selectively deactivate your phone's capacity to conduct ID checks. It's the same with the "EU Cloud initiative", that at the end was full of non-EU companies. The aim of the EU bureaucracy is not sovereignty, but extension of its power, nowadays called as "regulation". And when in place, it can't be removed, even if it's clearly self-harming.
reaperducer 1y ago
From open borders Better check on that. There was an article in the New York Times last week about how many E.U. countries have actually gone back to border checks. Most recently, Germany and Poland.
- SirHumphrey 1y ago
  But border checks in the EU are a bit more relaxed. Sometimes they just wave you through - other times you just show your government id (which in many EU countries you are required to carry at all times) and they maybe check the car boot. The border is still very much open.
- Aachen 1y ago
  Yeah, I'm not sure how to directly fight it yet (besides voting as I've always done) but I'm avoiding border queues on a weekly basis now. It's a shame, but for now you can still drive right through on a dozen other border points, just not the highway France apparently also had this around their Olympics or soccer world cup or something. It's not unique and so far it has always been a fad, usually to please nationalist voters for a while And it doesn't negate the broader point

sunshine-o 1y ago

You need to put yourself in the EU governing people shoes for a minute. Their predecessors, who were from the WW2 and Silent generations, did not care about the free Internet because they relied on the large mainstream media consuming baby boomers. They had a direct line to them. But the boomers are between 60 and 80 and vanishing. The following generations are in panic mode. So until recently the "free" Internet did not matter politically in the EU. Tech was used to trigger color revolutions abroad where the demographics were younger. But now the unelected EU commission inherited that Internet things and are on the wrong side of it. Worst almost everybody in the EU speaks English and listen to Joe Rogan & co. And while the US Gov might be able to control the Joe Rogan type the EU does not. So their only move is to crack down on the Internet and limit it with a Chinese firewall type system. But they obviously do not have the ability to do so without the capabilities of an US tech giant (remember their own systems are on Office 365, every phone is Android or Apple). And this would also be in the interest of the US because it would give them a solid control over the EU. Remember the first goal of a system is to survive and I do not see another realistic path.

Y_Y 1y ago
> almost everybody in the EU speaks English and listen to Joe Rogan & co. Is this meant as a joke? It's not even remotely plausible.
- sunshine-o 1y ago
  A few decades ago, Europeans would usually learn another European language, often for economic migration purpose. But the "Internet generations" learned English early and ... on the Internet. I only mentioned Joe Rogan because it is the most popular, but all the big american podcasts are very popular in Europe. Also the lines between entertainment and politics have been blurred and Europeans follow much more what Trump says than let's say Ursula. Also, why do you think the Macrons are suing Candace Owen? She is an niche podcaster with a show on Rumble (a platform which in a way blocked in France). Would Helmut Kohl have been threatened in his own country by what Alex Jones was saying in the 90s?

pyrale 1y ago

On one hand, there is a will from some people to be less dependent. On the other hand, the EU bodies as well as national reps are besieged by lobbyists and diplomats, and without much backlash from constituents, it's very hard not to find someone that will do what you want. Just look at this former EC commissioner [1] working for Uber. Flip-floping happens occasionally when the public catches up. [1]: https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/opening-summary/en/181717 https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/opening-summary/en/181717

Smithalicious 1y ago

If nation states are dogs, then the EU is the parrot: loud, proud, and not a dog.

tim333 1y ago

Trouble with your key strength being regulating is you need someone else to make stuff.