4 ms·

> [The company] appointed investigative agencies to surveil me, initially covertly and then overtly with vehicles and cameras placed outside my house. Isn't th

> [The company] appointed investigative agencies to surveil me, initially covertly and then overtly with vehicles and cameras placed outside my house. Isn't that just stalking? Why didn't they just call the cops?

XorNot 1y ago
I'm guessing because none of it happened. Seriously an anonymous client, talking about an anonymous company, hiring another anonymous company, stating that a credible professional (the senior lawyer) said it was a big issue but not actually confirming with the lawyer that they knew of this case and had said that?
- matthewdgreen 1y ago
  I was curious about this so I visited ChatGPT and asked if there are documented cases in the UK where these things have happened, and I was met with a deluge of well-documented cases where corporations hired private intelligence firms to infiltrate activist groups and surveil critics and ex-employees, complete with links to primary and secondary sources which I briefly checked out just to make sure it wasn’t hallucinating. Then it asked me if I wanted a second deluge and I declined. I don’t know why people have a mental model of the world that is so incompatible with reality that they’ll post skeptical takes to HN when we live in a world where so much data is available at the tip of our fingers.
  - XorNot 1y ago
    And then you didn't post your prompt, the links you looked at or really anything that would mean anyone could establish a common basis of reality or determine if actual nefarious action was happening. For example, "infiltrating an organization" is also just joining it, which is quite dissimilar to say, stalking if all they did was not actually believe in the organization, rather the say, menacingly post men and machines outside of someone's residence for the purpose of intimidation via threat of violence. Did you find any of that? Specifically in the UK, by private investigation organizations, specifically providing stalking for hire? Confirmed by more evidence then "well someone totally said it happened but we won't say who or by who?"
    - Hikikomori 1y ago
      Dont understand why you find it so hard to believe. The ebay incident is insane and there are many like it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal
      - globalnode 1y ago
        Vested interests is why they find it hard to believe.
      - zdragnar 1y ago
        Lawyers have gotten into trouble using chatGPT for legal research because it hallucinated court cases. I'm certainly not trusting what a random person on the Internet says it came up with. That isn't to say the core assertion is wrong, but that I'll immediately dismiss one for which "chatGPT said" is the primary evidence.
        matthewdgreen 1y ago
        I didn’t say that ChatGPT said. I said I used ChatGPT as a search engine because it’s incredibly easy and slightly better than Google. And then I visited the links it gave me to see the primary and secondary sources. Again, the only reason we’re having this conversation as though there’s a debate here is that people have decided to believe in one inaccurate version of the world instead of using the extensive tools available to figure out what’s going on. This level of conversation is fine for Reddit, it’s embarrassing for HN where having an accurate mental model of the world (and a willingness to learn an update) is kind of essential.
        tc313 1y ago
        HN is a place where you typically post links to sources that support your claim. We could all Google it (or ChatGPT it), but we may not come out with the same results. Why not post your sources so that we can discuss a common set of evidence?
- hnfong 1y ago
  In these cases, if you speak too much you get killed. I'll post one such case to corroborate the article, since it was big news in my community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Hong_Kong_trade_office_spy_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Hong_Kong_trade_office_sp... Allegedly involved are Hong Kong government, multiple private security and private investigators from the UK with ex-military/law enforcement background, and a mysterious death after the whole scandal was exposed. Which sounds exactly like what the article is describing.
  - throwawayffffas 1y ago
    While I agree that the author clearly has to keep the details private from the press for their own safety, the whole article frames the alleged victims as powerless, but in truth they are not. The behaviors described are mostly criminal, they have legal recourse, it's not like civil cases where they would be buried from the other sides legal team. And speaking of the other side they are private companies employing ex intelligence people they don't have the immense backing of a state behind them, if they get caught doing illegal things a few times thats it their whole business could be under threat. I am guessing they are very chummy with law enforcement, have good lawyers and may be in bed with politicians but the whole thing looks extremely precarious it would only take a couple of cases to stick for real prison time for these folks.
    - hnfong 1y ago
      Have you even read my link? > don't have the immense backing of a state They had backing of a foreign state power, in this case Hong Kong (and by implication China) > it would only take a couple of cases to stick for real prison time for these folks The guy just died a mysterious death once the thing was exposed. He must have wished for prison time.
      - throwawayffffas 1y ago
        I did, I just don't think the particulars really much what the politico article discusses. The private security companies in the case in your link are in my opinion incidental. In your link a state actor recruited a bunch of people to do it's dirty work. Typical state sponsored intelligence stuff. The security companies were really a former marine and a couple of former Hong Kong cops. They could have been hired ad hoc. In the politico article it discusses shops run from groups of former intelligence agencies (MI5 and MI6 presumably) running intelligence operations for companies. It's an entire different kind of thing in my opinion. Sure if a van rolls up across your home with a bunch of dudes in it you can't know which case you are dealing with, but either way calling the cops is the right way to go.

XorNot 1y ago

I'm guessing because none of it happened. Seriously an anonymous client, talking about an anonymous company, hiring another anonymous company, stating that a credible professional (the senior lawyer) said it was a big issue but not actually confirming with the lawyer that they knew of this case and had said that?

matthewdgreen 1y ago
I was curious about this so I visited ChatGPT and asked if there are documented cases in the UK where these things have happened, and I was met with a deluge of well-documented cases where corporations hired private intelligence firms to infiltrate activist groups and surveil critics and ex-employees, complete with links to primary and secondary sources which I briefly checked out just to make sure it wasn’t hallucinating. Then it asked me if I wanted a second deluge and I declined. I don’t know why people have a mental model of the world that is so incompatible with reality that they’ll post skeptical takes to HN when we live in a world where so much data is available at the tip of our fingers.
- XorNot 1y ago
  And then you didn't post your prompt, the links you looked at or really anything that would mean anyone could establish a common basis of reality or determine if actual nefarious action was happening. For example, "infiltrating an organization" is also just joining it, which is quite dissimilar to say, stalking if all they did was not actually believe in the organization, rather the say, menacingly post men and machines outside of someone's residence for the purpose of intimidation via threat of violence. Did you find any of that? Specifically in the UK, by private investigation organizations, specifically providing stalking for hire? Confirmed by more evidence then "well someone totally said it happened but we won't say who or by who?"
  - Hikikomori 1y ago
    Dont understand why you find it so hard to believe. The ebay incident is insane and there are many like it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay_stalking_scandal
    - globalnode 1y ago
      Vested interests is why they find it hard to believe.
    - zdragnar 1y ago
      Lawyers have gotten into trouble using chatGPT for legal research because it hallucinated court cases. I'm certainly not trusting what a random person on the Internet says it came up with. That isn't to say the core assertion is wrong, but that I'll immediately dismiss one for which "chatGPT said" is the primary evidence.
      - matthewdgreen 1y ago
        I didn’t say that ChatGPT said. I said I used ChatGPT as a search engine because it’s incredibly easy and slightly better than Google. And then I visited the links it gave me to see the primary and secondary sources. Again, the only reason we’re having this conversation as though there’s a debate here is that people have decided to believe in one inaccurate version of the world instead of using the extensive tools available to figure out what’s going on. This level of conversation is fine for Reddit, it’s embarrassing for HN where having an accurate mental model of the world (and a willingness to learn an update) is kind of essential.
        tc313 1y ago
        HN is a place where you typically post links to sources that support your claim. We could all Google it (or ChatGPT it), but we may not come out with the same results. Why not post your sources so that we can discuss a common set of evidence?
hnfong 1y ago
In these cases, if you speak too much you get killed. I'll post one such case to corroborate the article, since it was big news in my community: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Hong_Kong_trade_office_spy_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Hong_Kong_trade_office_sp... Allegedly involved are Hong Kong government, multiple private security and private investigators from the UK with ex-military/law enforcement background, and a mysterious death after the whole scandal was exposed. Which sounds exactly like what the article is describing.
- throwawayffffas 1y ago
  While I agree that the author clearly has to keep the details private from the press for their own safety, the whole article frames the alleged victims as powerless, but in truth they are not. The behaviors described are mostly criminal, they have legal recourse, it's not like civil cases where they would be buried from the other sides legal team. And speaking of the other side they are private companies employing ex intelligence people they don't have the immense backing of a state behind them, if they get caught doing illegal things a few times thats it their whole business could be under threat. I am guessing they are very chummy with law enforcement, have good lawyers and may be in bed with politicians but the whole thing looks extremely precarious it would only take a couple of cases to stick for real prison time for these folks.
  - hnfong 1y ago
    Have you even read my link? > don't have the immense backing of a state They had backing of a foreign state power, in this case Hong Kong (and by implication China) > it would only take a couple of cases to stick for real prison time for these folks The guy just died a mysterious death once the thing was exposed. He must have wished for prison time.
    - throwawayffffas 1y ago
      I did, I just don't think the particulars really much what the politico article discusses. The private security companies in the case in your link are in my opinion incidental. In your link a state actor recruited a bunch of people to do it's dirty work. Typical state sponsored intelligence stuff. The security companies were really a former marine and a couple of former Hong Kong cops. They could have been hired ad hoc. In the politico article it discusses shops run from groups of former intelligence agencies (MI5 and MI6 presumably) running intelligence operations for companies. It's an entire different kind of thing in my opinion. Sure if a van rolls up across your home with a bunch of dudes in it you can't know which case you are dealing with, but either way calling the cops is the right way to go.