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The lead pipes theory is mostly just pop-science. Romans were likely getting more lead exposure from using lead cooking vessels and utensils.

edwardbernays 1y ago
So is the idea that widespread lead exposure led to the decline of the Roman empire largely pop science? Are you saying that's not accurate, or that the source of the lead exposure is miscounted?
- Quarrel 1y ago
  Yes, that is the modern understanding. Widespread lead exposure had very little / nothing to do with the decline the Roman Empire.
  - Isamu 1y ago
    Plus to prove the lead connection you have to discount the centuries of Roman dominance and growth during which lead exposure was common.
    - wredcoll 1y ago
      This is a much better point. It's not like there were more lead pipes during the decline than the rise.
      - edwardbernays 1y ago
        Wouldn't there necessarily be more lead pipes at the peak and post-peak? Assuming that pipe-building was some non-linear function of dominance, which seems a fair assumption, we would start with 0% pipes at 0% rome and asymptotically close to 100% pipes at the asymptotic 100% peak rome. Is this a bad assumption, or is it basically just pedantry?
        wredcoll 1y ago
        It would be more about lead pipes per capita, possibly as rome itself grew wealthier from conquests they added more and more piping, but it would be hard to relate this to any specific moment in time. Presumably the wealthy elites had their pipes installed first anyways.
- throawaywpg 1y ago
  "Decadence" likely had nothing to do with the Roman Empire's fall. That theory is based essentially on propaganda, designed to absolve them of blame. The lead pipes had too much calcification, and not much lead would have leached out. But the Romans did use lead acetate as a sweetener, so they were adding lead directly to many (most?) of their meals.
- yawboakye 1y ago
  there are many ways to account for the fall of the roman empire, and everyone chooses their favorite (usually depending on where their interest bends). for example, it could be explained by the increased usage of mercenaries in the roman army. i like this theory because the fall was brought by losses to renegade forces. it could also be explained by bad leadership.
didgeoridoo 1y ago
Plus literally “flavoring” their wine on purpose with lead acetate.
- MengerSponge 1y ago
  And that was the first and last time that no-calorie sweeteners had deleterious population-level effects
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    High calorie sweeteners have deleterious population-level effects. Is there any evidence that modern low calorie sweeteners have deleterious population-level effects, and what are they compared to high calorie sweeteners?
    - cjbgkagh 1y ago
      Anecdotally I get gut dybiosis (microbiome imbalance) that notably only occurs when using artificial sweeteners and stops when I stop taking it, I’ve talked to many others who have noticed the same thing. Gut dysbiosis can cause chronic systemic inflammation which is rather bad for the body, not sure if it’s worse than the sugar it replaces, but it shouldn’t be assumed that the problem is solved by low calories. I think it’s important to limit both, preferably to near zero.
      - hinkley 1y ago
        Sugar alcohols are especially bad for this. I fried my GI one year and it was largely down to developing a gum chewing habit at a time when sugar alcohols were in almost all gum brands. You can’t process them, but bad gut bacteria can.
        MengerSponge 1y ago
        It sucks so much, because xylitol appears to be very good for your teeth but bad for your heart: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/xylitol-may-affect-cardiovascular-health https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/xylitol...
declan_roberts 1y ago
Not to mention the fact that their pipes immediately become mineralized, and very little lead leeches in cold water. Headline science has a way of sticking around for a long time.
- hungmung 1y ago
  Also...Roman plumbing was constant-flow. Lead in water is mostly an issue when it gets to rest in the pipes for a while, then when somebody turns the tap on they get water that's had time to absorb the lead. Since Roman plumbing had no taps though and was just running constantly, the amount of time the water was exposed to the lead was pretty minimal.
- throawaywpg 1y ago
  spelling pedant: "leaches," not "leeches"
  - darth_avocado 1y ago
    It’s lychees
buovjaga 1y ago
Joseph R. McConnell et al. (January 6, 2025). Pan-European atmospheric lead pollution, enhanced blood lead levels, and cognitive decline from Roman-era mining and smelting. https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2419630121 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2419630121
dathinab 1y ago
also lead flavoring lead tastes sweet, sugar wasn't cheaply & widely available, honey is expensive etc. and knowledge about lead poisoning was not really a think AFIK at the same time lead pipes tend to gain a crust of chalk over time (depending on chalk content of the water) which mostly defuses their danger. Like you will find some very old houses with lead tape water pipes in the EU today but if you test their tape water you won't find (much of) an issue due to 1) the chalk 2) the water not staying long in the pipe if it's e.g. a 4 apartment house.
- fernmyth 1y ago
  Here's Vitruvius in "De Architectura" claiming it's common, easily verified knowledge: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius/8*.html#6.10 https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius... Of course, him mentioning "Don't do this" suggests that lead water pipes into the home were common enough to need a warning against.
  - dathinab 1y ago
    interesting > "Don't do this" suggests that lead water pipes into the home were common enough to need a warning against. sadly, they still are today sometimes, in areas with a lot of 125+year old infrastructure :/
bayindirh 1y ago
Interestingly, in 2017, a research found that crime rates in US dropped as lead pipes are replaced with better alternatives [0]. [0]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-evidence-that-lead-exposure-increases-crime/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-evidence-that-lead-ex...
adastra22 1y ago
Which continued pretty much into the modern age. Nothing specifically Roman about it.

edwardbernays 1y ago

So is the idea that widespread lead exposure led to the decline of the Roman empire largely pop science? Are you saying that's not accurate, or that the source of the lead exposure is miscounted?

Quarrel 1y ago
Yes, that is the modern understanding. Widespread lead exposure had very little / nothing to do with the decline the Roman Empire.
- Isamu 1y ago
  Plus to prove the lead connection you have to discount the centuries of Roman dominance and growth during which lead exposure was common.
  - wredcoll 1y ago
    This is a much better point. It's not like there were more lead pipes during the decline than the rise.
    - edwardbernays 1y ago
      Wouldn't there necessarily be more lead pipes at the peak and post-peak? Assuming that pipe-building was some non-linear function of dominance, which seems a fair assumption, we would start with 0% pipes at 0% rome and asymptotically close to 100% pipes at the asymptotic 100% peak rome. Is this a bad assumption, or is it basically just pedantry?
      - wredcoll 1y ago
        It would be more about lead pipes per capita, possibly as rome itself grew wealthier from conquests they added more and more piping, but it would be hard to relate this to any specific moment in time. Presumably the wealthy elites had their pipes installed first anyways.
throawaywpg 1y ago
"Decadence" likely had nothing to do with the Roman Empire's fall. That theory is based essentially on propaganda, designed to absolve them of blame. The lead pipes had too much calcification, and not much lead would have leached out. But the Romans did use lead acetate as a sweetener, so they were adding lead directly to many (most?) of their meals.
yawboakye 1y ago
there are many ways to account for the fall of the roman empire, and everyone chooses their favorite (usually depending on where their interest bends). for example, it could be explained by the increased usage of mercenaries in the roman army. i like this theory because the fall was brought by losses to renegade forces. it could also be explained by bad leadership.

didgeoridoo 1y ago

Plus literally “flavoring” their wine on purpose with lead acetate.

MengerSponge 1y ago
And that was the first and last time that no-calorie sweeteners had deleterious population-level effects
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  High calorie sweeteners have deleterious population-level effects. Is there any evidence that modern low calorie sweeteners have deleterious population-level effects, and what are they compared to high calorie sweeteners?
  - cjbgkagh 1y ago
    Anecdotally I get gut dybiosis (microbiome imbalance) that notably only occurs when using artificial sweeteners and stops when I stop taking it, I’ve talked to many others who have noticed the same thing. Gut dysbiosis can cause chronic systemic inflammation which is rather bad for the body, not sure if it’s worse than the sugar it replaces, but it shouldn’t be assumed that the problem is solved by low calories. I think it’s important to limit both, preferably to near zero.
    - hinkley 1y ago
      Sugar alcohols are especially bad for this. I fried my GI one year and it was largely down to developing a gum chewing habit at a time when sugar alcohols were in almost all gum brands. You can’t process them, but bad gut bacteria can.
      - MengerSponge 1y ago
        It sucks so much, because xylitol appears to be very good for your teeth but bad for your heart: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/xylitol-may-affect-cardiovascular-health https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/xylitol...

declan_roberts 1y ago

Not to mention the fact that their pipes immediately become mineralized, and very little lead leeches in cold water. Headline science has a way of sticking around for a long time.

hungmung 1y ago
Also...Roman plumbing was constant-flow. Lead in water is mostly an issue when it gets to rest in the pipes for a while, then when somebody turns the tap on they get water that's had time to absorb the lead. Since Roman plumbing had no taps though and was just running constantly, the amount of time the water was exposed to the lead was pretty minimal.
throawaywpg 1y ago
spelling pedant: "leaches," not "leeches"
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  It’s lychees

buovjaga 1y ago

Joseph R. McConnell et al. (January 6, 2025). Pan-European atmospheric lead pollution, enhanced blood lead levels, and cognitive decline from Roman-era mining and smelting. https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2419630121 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2419630121

dathinab 1y ago

also lead flavoring lead tastes sweet, sugar wasn't cheaply & widely available, honey is expensive etc. and knowledge about lead poisoning was not really a think AFIK at the same time lead pipes tend to gain a crust of chalk over time (depending on chalk content of the water) which mostly defuses their danger. Like you will find some very old houses with lead tape water pipes in the EU today but if you test their tape water you won't find (much of) an issue due to 1) the chalk 2) the water not staying long in the pipe if it's e.g. a 4 apartment house.

fernmyth 1y ago
Here's Vitruvius in "De Architectura" claiming it's common, easily verified knowledge: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius/8*.html#6.10 https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius... Of course, him mentioning "Don't do this" suggests that lead water pipes into the home were common enough to need a warning against.
- dathinab 1y ago
  interesting > "Don't do this" suggests that lead water pipes into the home were common enough to need a warning against. sadly, they still are today sometimes, in areas with a lot of 125+year old infrastructure :/

bayindirh 1y ago

Interestingly, in 2017, a research found that crime rates in US dropped as lead pipes are replaced with better alternatives [0]. [0]: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-evidence-that-lead-exposure-increases-crime/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-evidence-that-lead-ex...

adastra22 1y ago

Which continued pretty much into the modern age. Nothing specifically Roman about it.