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> surrendering to a foreign government that has no jurisdiction over them is what's new Many countries, including the US, claim jurisdiction if you are providi

> surrendering to a foreign government that has no jurisdiction over them is what's new Many countries, including the US, claim jurisdiction if you are providing services to their citizens. Some claim jurisdiction if someone in that country sees your web page (ie you've now "published" it there). You've been blissfully unaware, perhaps, but this has been a thing for a long time. You have probably seen sites having sections of their TOS tailored specifically for Californian users- this is not that different. I think the UK legislation here is hamfisted and very harmful, but the jurisdiction argument is nothing new.

piker 1y ago
Classic case of Wolfenstein 3d being banned in Germany in the 90s rings a bell.
- harvey9 1y ago
  Germany has laws about displaying nazi emblems. The same game design reskinned would be fine.
  - piker 1y ago
    Right, but the point was there is precedent for laws affecting American operations when distributing software into a jurisdiction.
    - pyman 1y ago
      Regulators are fed up with billionaires in the US turning a blind eye to porn just to make more money off it, even if kids can get around the restrictions. Look at Elon Musk, one of the first things he did after buying Twitter was open the floodgates, letting anyone upload or search for porn without any proper safeguards. Reddit shows porn to kids too, as long as they tick the "Show mature (18+) content" box. Same with Telegram, Discord, WhatsApp, Facebook, and the rest. The only apps that don't seem to turn a blind eye are Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Snapchat. Epic Games and Roblox also do a great job, both have strong moderation teams and built-in tools to protect younger users. Every company should use them as examples. They've shown it's possible to build huge platforms without ignoring the safety of kids online. Now that the UK forced these reckless billionaires to update their software to comply with the rules, every government should do the same.
      - pseudo0 1y ago
        This isn't a uniquely American problem. Age verification is a huge pain to implement and completely tanks user sign up metrics. No tech company will do it unless absolutely forced by a major government, eg. see the recent US state-level laws that require age verification for porn sites. Websites are using IP-geo checks to apply the age verification process to as few users as possible. Also I'd question putting Roblox in the child-friendly category. Hindenburg Research characterized the platform as a "Pedophile Hellscape". They obviously have a financial angle as a short-seller, but they point out some issues that seem pretty significant, in my opinion. > We found Roblox to be an X-rated pedophile hellscape, replete with users attempting to groom our avatars, groups openly trading child pornography, widely accessible sex games, violent content and extremely abusive speech—all of which is open to young children and all while Roblox has cut content moderation spending to appease Wall Street and boost earnings. > We put together a brief video compilation of Roblox moderation failures https://hindenburgresearch.com/roblox/ https://hindenburgresearch.com/roblox/
        pyman 1y ago
        Oh, I was wrong about Roblox. Some users even encourage 8, 9-yo to install Discord so they can groom them. So I guess there are two different issues here: porn sites showing indecent images and videos to everyone, regardless of age, and sick people grooming kids on social media and in games.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    > The same game design reskinned would be fine. The same game design reskinned wouldn’t be the same game, though. I respect the Germans for their decision to pass and enforce their laws in Germany, and to have an opinion about how websites are displayed to German IPs, but I also am sensitive to the artistic intent of id software, while questioning the necessity of making the games in the first place. Nazi symbols are problematic for the same reasons that war movies are: even if you’re trying to make an anti-war or anti-Nazi piece, it still portrays the very same imagery and context in order to subvert it or supplant it. It’s somewhat self-defeating, and it’s fodder for fans of the things creators themselves may oppose to rally around and agitate for or against to raise awareness for their ideology and their support of it. Ironically, id didn’t even start that franchise, though they did popularize the genre and their own place in it with Wolfenstein 3D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein That said, the original stealth based games were loosely based on real events in which Allied forces killed Nazis, so I’m kind of okay with publicizing notable historical instances of Allies defeating Nazis in World War 2 to a point. We’ve probably crossed that point as soon as id made Wolfenstein 3D, if not before that under Muse Software, which curiously disestablished itself after the second game in the franchise before id continued it. I don’t mean to find fault per se but the moment has passed to make these kinds of content in my opinion. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140710-can-a-film-be-truly-anti-war https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140710-can-a-film-be-t... > “There’s no such thing as an anti-war film,” is a quote often attributed to the late French filmmaker François Truffaut.
pyman 1y ago
Harmful in which way? Porn addiction is as harmful as gambling, tobacco and alcohol addiction. High school students with phones at school are showing porn to their friends, even younger kids. Some schools have banned phones, but teens aged 12–17 can still access porn sites freely when they get home. In my opinion, gambling sites and porn sites should always verify age, same goes for shops selling tobacco and alcohol.
- const_cast 1y ago
  > Porn addiction is as harmful as gambling, tobacco and alcohol addiction. I've heard this before, but I've never, not even once, gotten an evidence-based approach to if this is true. I've only ever gotten morality-based arguments, which, IMO, aren't arguments at all and aren't worth mine, or anyone else's, time. We cannot just act like pornography being harmful is a foregone conclusion. No, we need to prove it. We should not be legislating things, and giving up our privacy and freedom, before even defining a problem. Intuitively, sure, it makes sense that porn is bad. It depicts sex, and in western puritanical cultures, that's bad. If people are exposed to sex, surely they're at greater risk of teen pregnancy, or STIs, or whatever. But is this actually the case? In the past 20 years, teen pregnancy has fallen off a cliff. Rates of STIs are lower, too. In areas that teach abstinence-only education, they actually have higher teen pregnancy. Taking a more puritanical approach does not guarantee better outcomes, and based off the real-world statistics, it seems to do the opposite. In addition, I have zero reason to believe porn addiction is even real. There's a lot of dispute among psychologists, with most not recognizing it as an addiction. The problem here is that an addiction is not a compulsive action. An addiction needs to impair your everyday life. That's the clinical definition of an addiction. We're not seeing a lot of bad outcomes or impairment from pornography. It is exceedingly rare that someone who is consuming pornography is doing it to a degree where it negatively affects their lives. Sure, it's possible, but for the vast, vast majority of people this just does not appear to be the case. Now, to get ahead of the curve because I've already had this conversation a hundred times - no, I am not addicted to pornography and I very rarely consume it. I have a happy and healthy sex life. I just reject the idea that it's harmful with no evidence provided, and I reject moral arguments in general.
  - 1y ago

piker 1y ago

Classic case of Wolfenstein 3d being banned in Germany in the 90s rings a bell.

harvey9 1y ago
Germany has laws about displaying nazi emblems. The same game design reskinned would be fine.
- piker 1y ago
  Right, but the point was there is precedent for laws affecting American operations when distributing software into a jurisdiction.
  - pyman 1y ago
    Regulators are fed up with billionaires in the US turning a blind eye to porn just to make more money off it, even if kids can get around the restrictions. Look at Elon Musk, one of the first things he did after buying Twitter was open the floodgates, letting anyone upload or search for porn without any proper safeguards. Reddit shows porn to kids too, as long as they tick the "Show mature (18+) content" box. Same with Telegram, Discord, WhatsApp, Facebook, and the rest. The only apps that don't seem to turn a blind eye are Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Snapchat. Epic Games and Roblox also do a great job, both have strong moderation teams and built-in tools to protect younger users. Every company should use them as examples. They've shown it's possible to build huge platforms without ignoring the safety of kids online. Now that the UK forced these reckless billionaires to update their software to comply with the rules, every government should do the same.
    - pseudo0 1y ago
      This isn't a uniquely American problem. Age verification is a huge pain to implement and completely tanks user sign up metrics. No tech company will do it unless absolutely forced by a major government, eg. see the recent US state-level laws that require age verification for porn sites. Websites are using IP-geo checks to apply the age verification process to as few users as possible. Also I'd question putting Roblox in the child-friendly category. Hindenburg Research characterized the platform as a "Pedophile Hellscape". They obviously have a financial angle as a short-seller, but they point out some issues that seem pretty significant, in my opinion. > We found Roblox to be an X-rated pedophile hellscape, replete with users attempting to groom our avatars, groups openly trading child pornography, widely accessible sex games, violent content and extremely abusive speech—all of which is open to young children and all while Roblox has cut content moderation spending to appease Wall Street and boost earnings. > We put together a brief video compilation of Roblox moderation failures https://hindenburgresearch.com/roblox/ https://hindenburgresearch.com/roblox/
      - pyman 1y ago
        Oh, I was wrong about Roblox. Some users even encourage 8, 9-yo to install Discord so they can groom them. So I guess there are two different issues here: porn sites showing indecent images and videos to everyone, regardless of age, and sick people grooming kids on social media and in games.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  > The same game design reskinned would be fine. The same game design reskinned wouldn’t be the same game, though. I respect the Germans for their decision to pass and enforce their laws in Germany, and to have an opinion about how websites are displayed to German IPs, but I also am sensitive to the artistic intent of id software, while questioning the necessity of making the games in the first place. Nazi symbols are problematic for the same reasons that war movies are: even if you’re trying to make an anti-war or anti-Nazi piece, it still portrays the very same imagery and context in order to subvert it or supplant it. It’s somewhat self-defeating, and it’s fodder for fans of the things creators themselves may oppose to rally around and agitate for or against to raise awareness for their ideology and their support of it. Ironically, id didn’t even start that franchise, though they did popularize the genre and their own place in it with Wolfenstein 3D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein That said, the original stealth based games were loosely based on real events in which Allied forces killed Nazis, so I’m kind of okay with publicizing notable historical instances of Allies defeating Nazis in World War 2 to a point. We’ve probably crossed that point as soon as id made Wolfenstein 3D, if not before that under Muse Software, which curiously disestablished itself after the second game in the franchise before id continued it. I don’t mean to find fault per se but the moment has passed to make these kinds of content in my opinion. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140710-can-a-film-be-truly-anti-war https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140710-can-a-film-be-t... > “There’s no such thing as an anti-war film,” is a quote often attributed to the late French filmmaker François Truffaut.

pyman 1y ago

Harmful in which way? Porn addiction is as harmful as gambling, tobacco and alcohol addiction. High school students with phones at school are showing porn to their friends, even younger kids. Some schools have banned phones, but teens aged 12–17 can still access porn sites freely when they get home. In my opinion, gambling sites and porn sites should always verify age, same goes for shops selling tobacco and alcohol.

const_cast 1y ago
> Porn addiction is as harmful as gambling, tobacco and alcohol addiction. I've heard this before, but I've never, not even once, gotten an evidence-based approach to if this is true. I've only ever gotten morality-based arguments, which, IMO, aren't arguments at all and aren't worth mine, or anyone else's, time. We cannot just act like pornography being harmful is a foregone conclusion. No, we need to prove it. We should not be legislating things, and giving up our privacy and freedom, before even defining a problem. Intuitively, sure, it makes sense that porn is bad. It depicts sex, and in western puritanical cultures, that's bad. If people are exposed to sex, surely they're at greater risk of teen pregnancy, or STIs, or whatever. But is this actually the case? In the past 20 years, teen pregnancy has fallen off a cliff. Rates of STIs are lower, too. In areas that teach abstinence-only education, they actually have higher teen pregnancy. Taking a more puritanical approach does not guarantee better outcomes, and based off the real-world statistics, it seems to do the opposite. In addition, I have zero reason to believe porn addiction is even real. There's a lot of dispute among psychologists, with most not recognizing it as an addiction. The problem here is that an addiction is not a compulsive action. An addiction needs to impair your everyday life. That's the clinical definition of an addiction. We're not seeing a lot of bad outcomes or impairment from pornography. It is exceedingly rare that someone who is consuming pornography is doing it to a degree where it negatively affects their lives. Sure, it's possible, but for the vast, vast majority of people this just does not appear to be the case. Now, to get ahead of the curve because I've already had this conversation a hundred times - no, I am not addicted to pornography and I very rarely consume it. I have a happy and healthy sex life. I just reject the idea that it's harmful with no evidence provided, and I reject moral arguments in general.
- 1y ago