4 ms·

Prove it with numbers, not feelings. Israel is making mistakes, and doing things they shouldn’t, no doubt. But they’re not committing genocide.

dttze 1y ago
They refuse to let anyone monitor Gaza, they kill government officials, they destroyed almost all the hospitals. Who exactly would be reporting these numbers you claim to want? The health ministry that is barely functioning; the one you already said you don’t believe? It’s a ghetto undergoing a genocide. It’s farcical to say you want hard numbers when Israel and the US are doing everything they can to hide it.
- slashdev 1y ago
  Use the health ministry numbers, let’s pretend they’re accurate. Compare that with wars versus genocides and tell me which this resembles more closely. It’s an easy exercise. I’ve done it. It’s a war.
  - dttze 1y ago
    It’s not accurate, it’s undercounted. There is no working health system in Gaza. So, once again, who is supposed to be keeping an accurate count that would satisfy your need for numbers?
    - dlubarov 1y ago
      GHF isn't only reporting casualties recorded by the regular health system though. They've been incorporating casualty reports from a variety of other sources, including a Google form where regular Gazans report casualties.
    - slashdev 1y ago
      That’s a cheap cop out to not do the work. Multiply the numbers by two to account for your alleged undercounting. Estimate how many of those are combatants and how many civilians. Compare to other urban guerrilla warfare. I’ll respect you if you at least try the exercise.
      - dttze 1y ago
        Acknowledging the reality of the situation and the limits of what data is available is a cop out? We should instead use the inaccurate numbers and some arbitrary method you decided to analyze it instead? You’re just trolling at this point.
        slashdev 1y ago
        I knew you were all talk and no substance. It took me 10 minutes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44695878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44695878
        dttze 1y ago
        You’re the one using inaccurate data, which even you admit starts skewing towards being a genocide if you don’t just blindly believe Israeli propaganda. I’m happy to admit the data is uncertain. I can then use the words of Israelis, the actions of the IDF, the actions in the West Bank, and the governments attempts to stifle free speech to infer this is in fact a genocide. Oh by the way, which definition of genocide says it has to be a certain number or ratio? This is a completely arbitrary metric you’ve decided to focus on.
        slashdev 1y ago
        Genocide is extremely vague. It requires intentionally killing members of a group just because they're members of a group. It makes no requirement about how many need to be killed - but obviously that matters too. Oct 7th had both intent and the actions - killing Israeli's of all ages just because they were Jews - but it wasn't a genocide because it was mercifully limited in scope. So scale must matter. I would argue it's like porn, you know it when you see it. Rwanda, Armenia, Bosnia, the Holocaust. Censoring information in war, which every country does, is not proof of genocide. Israel is the only country that I am aware of in all of history actually providing food and other essentials to the enemy side during a war. That's not the actions of an entity intent on committing genocide. Without intent, it's not a genocide. You can say they're being cavalier with human life in Gaza, which happens to an extent in every war, but even then the numbers show they're at least acting with some restraint. Again, that rules out genocide. Words mean things, you can't just call a war a genocide because it's violent.

dttze 1y ago

They refuse to let anyone monitor Gaza, they kill government officials, they destroyed almost all the hospitals. Who exactly would be reporting these numbers you claim to want? The health ministry that is barely functioning; the one you already said you don’t believe? It’s a ghetto undergoing a genocide. It’s farcical to say you want hard numbers when Israel and the US are doing everything they can to hide it.

slashdev 1y ago
Use the health ministry numbers, let’s pretend they’re accurate. Compare that with wars versus genocides and tell me which this resembles more closely. It’s an easy exercise. I’ve done it. It’s a war.
- dttze 1y ago
  It’s not accurate, it’s undercounted. There is no working health system in Gaza. So, once again, who is supposed to be keeping an accurate count that would satisfy your need for numbers?
  - dlubarov 1y ago
    GHF isn't only reporting casualties recorded by the regular health system though. They've been incorporating casualty reports from a variety of other sources, including a Google form where regular Gazans report casualties.
  - slashdev 1y ago
    That’s a cheap cop out to not do the work. Multiply the numbers by two to account for your alleged undercounting. Estimate how many of those are combatants and how many civilians. Compare to other urban guerrilla warfare. I’ll respect you if you at least try the exercise.
    - dttze 1y ago
      Acknowledging the reality of the situation and the limits of what data is available is a cop out? We should instead use the inaccurate numbers and some arbitrary method you decided to analyze it instead? You’re just trolling at this point.
      - slashdev 1y ago
        I knew you were all talk and no substance. It took me 10 minutes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44695878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44695878
        dttze 1y ago
        You’re the one using inaccurate data, which even you admit starts skewing towards being a genocide if you don’t just blindly believe Israeli propaganda. I’m happy to admit the data is uncertain. I can then use the words of Israelis, the actions of the IDF, the actions in the West Bank, and the governments attempts to stifle free speech to infer this is in fact a genocide. Oh by the way, which definition of genocide says it has to be a certain number or ratio? This is a completely arbitrary metric you’ve decided to focus on.
        slashdev 1y ago
        Genocide is extremely vague. It requires intentionally killing members of a group just because they're members of a group. It makes no requirement about how many need to be killed - but obviously that matters too. Oct 7th had both intent and the actions - killing Israeli's of all ages just because they were Jews - but it wasn't a genocide because it was mercifully limited in scope. So scale must matter. I would argue it's like porn, you know it when you see it. Rwanda, Armenia, Bosnia, the Holocaust. Censoring information in war, which every country does, is not proof of genocide. Israel is the only country that I am aware of in all of history actually providing food and other essentials to the enemy side during a war. That's not the actions of an entity intent on committing genocide. Without intent, it's not a genocide. You can say they're being cavalier with human life in Gaza, which happens to an extent in every war, but even then the numbers show they're at least acting with some restraint. Again, that rules out genocide. Words mean things, you can't just call a war a genocide because it's violent.