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The problem with simulated CSAM is that there is a risk that the viewer develops a fetish for such repulsive practices. It has then destructive consequences for

The problem with simulated CSAM is that there is a risk that the viewer develops a fetish for such repulsive practices. It has then destructive consequences for the viewer and, should he try to perform it, his victims. Either way, I don't see the harm of forbidding it. The web doesn't lack regular pornography alternatives, free or paid.

true_religion 1y ago
Gay conversion therapy, which has an entire society backing it, failed consistently despite trying pairing it with torture and social ostracism. This seems to suggest that broad sexual preferences are remarkably stable.
- drdeca 1y ago
  I would imagine that it is probably easier to make someone find something sexually exciting than to make them no longer find a thing sexually exciting? When a river had carved a canyon, it is hard to redirect it. That doesn’t mean the canyon was always there.
  - true_religion 1y ago
    By that logic, one would think that gay people would at least also be heterosexual because they're drowning in an ocean of heterosexual material.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Why is the pornography served to each generation more violent then? It's one thing to be homosexual, it's another to be into the most extreme acts that some homosexuals perform. Do we really need porn that scenarizes incest?
  - true_religion 1y ago
    It's kind of interesting that you're claiming a slippery slope argument, when the words we use to describe incest Oedipal and Electra complex come from wildly popular pre-CE fictional accounts of incest. As for violence, that's because such acts on film were illegal. Pornography was tightly regulated before this era of free speech. Even now the UK, is constantly trying to maintain BDSM porn as criminal [1] and Australia has similar tight restrictions [2]. This is to say nothing of the countries where pornography is completely banned: China, North Korea, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkmenistan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Iceland, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Malaysia, Malta, Myanmar, Sudan, Thailand, Turkey, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Yemen. So if the question is why do you see more of Y in XXX, it's because it is now allowed so content is created to satisfy needs that were already there. [1] https://reason.com/2014/12/02/uk-bans-fetish-porn/ https://reason.com/2014/12/02/uk-bans-fetish-porn/ [2] https://www.kptlegal.com.au/resources/knowledge/pornography-law/ https://www.kptlegal.com.au/resources/knowledge/pornography-...
johnnyanmac 1y ago
This is the same "violence in video games" argument, no? I'm open to reading studies on the issue, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that simulated CSAM "converts" people who otherwise is not attracted to children.
- drdeca 1y ago
  I don’t know how you would study that specifically, but it seems like there’s a lot of evidence that sexual experiences can contribute to formation of fetishes. Iirc there was an experiment on mice or rats or something where they had them wear some sort of structure the first times they mated and then later on they uh, mated more strongly when wearing the thing than when not wearing it (and I think when not wearing it, produced less emissions than rats or mice that had never been made to wear the thing). I mean, this seems to be a pattern people have seen in many cases? I seem to recall something about people in the military developing scat fetishes after repeatedly masturbating in restrooms that smell of feces, due to a lack of other private places? The phrase “fetish fuel” is a fairly standard phrase I think. Generally, it’s pretty clear that some fetishes come from somewhere. Like, the “woman turns into a giant blueberry” one seems to pretty clearly trace back to someone’s experience with the scene in “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory”. And, like, if someone starts out looking at/for breast expansion porn, they’re probably going to be exposed to a far bit of lactation porn as well, and I think there’s a fair chance that they’ll start seeking that out as well? For example. Why would we expect this pattern to not apply in the case of CP/CSAM?
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Violence in video games is quite different from paraphilias. While they usually have an origin deep buried in the psyche, exposure to specific types of porn can act as a trigger and reinforcement to it.
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    I fail to see how. We have entire sections of our brain dedicated to aggression and adrenaline management. Knowing how to recognize a threat, fight, and flight is every bit as base as knowing how to breed.
trothamel 1y ago
Two arguments I can think of: The first is that you're banning free expression, and banning free expression is inherently harmful. There's also the displacement theory - with the legal content being much more accessible and regulated to ensure minors aren't involved in production, it displaces illegal content that does harm minors.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  I don't think the theory behind "free expression" covers things such as CSAM or incest porn. It's ok to say that content that aim to excite the viewer about minor abuse should be forbidden.
  - trothamel 1y ago
    Murder is illegal, but games and stories about murder are protected free expression. None of the games in question involve actual people, let alone people being harmed, and so why wouldn't they be treated the same way?

true_religion 1y ago

Gay conversion therapy, which has an entire society backing it, failed consistently despite trying pairing it with torture and social ostracism. This seems to suggest that broad sexual preferences are remarkably stable.

drdeca 1y ago
I would imagine that it is probably easier to make someone find something sexually exciting than to make them no longer find a thing sexually exciting? When a river had carved a canyon, it is hard to redirect it. That doesn’t mean the canyon was always there.
- true_religion 1y ago
  By that logic, one would think that gay people would at least also be heterosexual because they're drowning in an ocean of heterosexual material.
Saline9515 1y ago
Why is the pornography served to each generation more violent then? It's one thing to be homosexual, it's another to be into the most extreme acts that some homosexuals perform. Do we really need porn that scenarizes incest?
- true_religion 1y ago
  It's kind of interesting that you're claiming a slippery slope argument, when the words we use to describe incest Oedipal and Electra complex come from wildly popular pre-CE fictional accounts of incest. As for violence, that's because such acts on film were illegal. Pornography was tightly regulated before this era of free speech. Even now the UK, is constantly trying to maintain BDSM porn as criminal [1] and Australia has similar tight restrictions [2]. This is to say nothing of the countries where pornography is completely banned: China, North Korea, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkmenistan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Iceland, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Malaysia, Malta, Myanmar, Sudan, Thailand, Turkey, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Yemen. So if the question is why do you see more of Y in XXX, it's because it is now allowed so content is created to satisfy needs that were already there. [1] https://reason.com/2014/12/02/uk-bans-fetish-porn/ https://reason.com/2014/12/02/uk-bans-fetish-porn/ [2] https://www.kptlegal.com.au/resources/knowledge/pornography-law/ https://www.kptlegal.com.au/resources/knowledge/pornography-...

johnnyanmac 1y ago

This is the same "violence in video games" argument, no? I'm open to reading studies on the issue, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that simulated CSAM "converts" people who otherwise is not attracted to children.

drdeca 1y ago
I don’t know how you would study that specifically, but it seems like there’s a lot of evidence that sexual experiences can contribute to formation of fetishes. Iirc there was an experiment on mice or rats or something where they had them wear some sort of structure the first times they mated and then later on they uh, mated more strongly when wearing the thing than when not wearing it (and I think when not wearing it, produced less emissions than rats or mice that had never been made to wear the thing). I mean, this seems to be a pattern people have seen in many cases? I seem to recall something about people in the military developing scat fetishes after repeatedly masturbating in restrooms that smell of feces, due to a lack of other private places? The phrase “fetish fuel” is a fairly standard phrase I think. Generally, it’s pretty clear that some fetishes come from somewhere. Like, the “woman turns into a giant blueberry” one seems to pretty clearly trace back to someone’s experience with the scene in “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory”. And, like, if someone starts out looking at/for breast expansion porn, they’re probably going to be exposed to a far bit of lactation porn as well, and I think there’s a fair chance that they’ll start seeking that out as well? For example. Why would we expect this pattern to not apply in the case of CP/CSAM?
Saline9515 1y ago
Violence in video games is quite different from paraphilias. While they usually have an origin deep buried in the psyche, exposure to specific types of porn can act as a trigger and reinforcement to it.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  I fail to see how. We have entire sections of our brain dedicated to aggression and adrenaline management. Knowing how to recognize a threat, fight, and flight is every bit as base as knowing how to breed.

trothamel 1y ago

Two arguments I can think of: The first is that you're banning free expression, and banning free expression is inherently harmful. There's also the displacement theory - with the legal content being much more accessible and regulated to ensure minors aren't involved in production, it displaces illegal content that does harm minors.

Saline9515 1y ago
I don't think the theory behind "free expression" covers things such as CSAM or incest porn. It's ok to say that content that aim to excite the viewer about minor abuse should be forbidden.
- trothamel 1y ago
  Murder is illegal, but games and stories about murder are protected free expression. None of the games in question involve actual people, let alone people being harmed, and so why wouldn't they be treated the same way?