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> If that is the cost of keeping the value within the western economies, we should pay. Plain and simple. I'd even argue it's cheap. No, that is not the cost o

> If that is the cost of keeping the value within the western economies, we should pay. Plain and simple. I'd even argue it's cheap. No, that is not the cost of keeping "the value" within western economies. It would be the cost of granting the US a leverage against the collective west. The US proved to be a very unreliable and outright hostile partner. At this point, it is not clear whether the US is more hostile to the collective west than the likes of China.

ksec 1y ago
US has been a reliable partner post WWII for 95%+ of the time. Making Trump administration representing 100+ years of US history isn't exactly a fair comparison.
- speeder 1y ago
  If you consider all US "friends", that is NOT the case. And not a Trump thing either, or even a Republican thing. USA is quite happy in screwing with "friends", if it will benefit some random lobby. There is a quite long history of USA doing coups, sabotage, and so on, against its own "friends".
- ezst 1y ago
  Yeah, that ship sailed the second time Americans voted for him.
  - maxdo 1y ago
    Sure , trump administration trying to protect associate members of eu is not as good partner as China who directly support Russia , Iran and other country trying to wipe west, very logical
    - rob_c 1y ago
      Don't worry they're just upset that the cheap toys from foxcon suicide plants are going to get out of reach. Once everything dies down the people complaining will find something else to moan about. Prices will normalise regardless of where things are manufactured that's the result of supply and demand. If people aren't willing to pay a bit extra maybe they never really needed luxury good X. Ofc there's fools who over optimized their supply chain in the name of "modern economics of growth" and they'll get a wake-up call about stability and not bowing to shareholders. It's just a shame for most that that lesson will be in the form of layoffs and bankruptcy vs a CEO digging deep and personally reinvesting back in the company they're supposed to believe in.
    - ezst 1y ago
      Sure, trump administration threatening members of the EU of war (economic or territorial) counts as "trying to protect". No dissonance in that whatsoever.
- redleader55 1y ago
  I don't think most people would contest the 100 years you mentioned. If we look at the military investments US did since Clinton(so, last 30 years), you'll notice a trend of looking after it's own interests before the ones of the world. An example is the lack of investment in destroyers to patrol the seas, while at the same time the focus shifted to super-carriers which are good for one thing: obliterate a single, powerful country. This is not just Trump, but everyone after Bush Sr.
  - p_ing 1y ago
    There are 78 Arleigh Burkes completed, six in the build stage, and 15 on order. There were only 31 Spruances and 4 Kidds. That seems like an investment in destroyers, and much more capable ones than it's predecessors at that. Argubly more capable than even the Ticonderoga. But maybe you mean something else I'm not groking.
- motorest 1y ago
  > US has been a reliable partner post WWII for 95%+ of the time. The current US administration has been threatening two separate NATO allies with invasion and annexation. Not even Russia, with their daily Russian last warnings of nuclear Armageddon, dare being that hostile.
- scotty79 1y ago
  You know the joke. You can build churches your entire life, but screw a goat once and that's how they are going to call you. Trust is a funny thing like that. You do have to do it all the time, but if you fail even once without extremely good reason you lose it all.
- contagiousflow 1y ago
  Don't ever look into the US's involvement in Latin America if you want to keep believing this
- bigfudge 1y ago
  But the signs are not good that the US will become more trustworthy again any time soon. The only back pressure on trump seems to be MAGA conspiracy theorists who look - if it’s possible - even less reliable than trump.
- Planktonne 1y ago
  Not in the most recent years though. People aren't saying that the US has always been unreliable, but that it is becoming more so. Averaging over a large window while ignoring the trend is not reasonable.
- frollogaston 1y ago
  Even under Trump, it's been a lot more words than action
scotty79 1y ago
In that case it's super cheap.
- motorest 1y ago
  > In that case it's super cheap. It might be, but it's also pretty stupid to use that as a selling point to convince the west to welcome that play as something remotely in their best interests. It isn't.
maxdo 1y ago
Right , just to remind that China is the country that supports Proxy wars with west ( Ukraine ), supports Iran , a country that placed tariffs on whole industries, like cars, software , spy and buy technology to replace anything advanced. A country willing to cut mineral supply anytime they don’t like anything is good partner and friend of EU , lol, how delusional someone can be ? Even current US Administration sends Patriots and military support to Ukraine, while China is sponsoring WAR, help Russia to keep up with war killing people around the world. China can end that war in 1 week if they really want. US spent fortune to protect collective west while countries like Germany almost dismantled their army in the past. Very rational thinking , sure. China will wipe out entire west with technological superiority in the next decade or two without west being united.
- rfrey 1y ago
  > without west being united If that is true, perhaps the US should stop destroying the western alliance.
  - maxdo 1y ago
    perhaps lot of european people need to have a wake up call. Europe is involved in a proxy war of China vs US. where EU associate member is fighting with china proxy, Russia. Other proxies are Iran with their satelites, without china neither Iran or Russia would not survive current wars they sponsor agaist west. as much as I hate current US admin, they push to increase NATO spending etc. how is that not "uniting" ?
    - motorest 1y ago
      > perhaps lot of european people need to have a wake up call. You haven't been paying attention. Even to this thread. Let me be very clear: The US proved to be a very unreliable and outright hostile partner. At this point, it is not clear whether the US is more hostile to the collective west than the likes of China. Therefore, let the US keep their backyard TSMC. It changes nothing. It helps nothing. It is not to be trusted. That is the wake-up call.
Our_Benefactors 1y ago
Potato, potahto > It would be the cost of granting the US a leverage against the collective west. Bad faith argument. “Collective west” as if the entire west aside from the US is a united bloc. Laughable.

ksec 1y ago

US has been a reliable partner post WWII for 95%+ of the time. Making Trump administration representing 100+ years of US history isn't exactly a fair comparison.

speeder 1y ago
If you consider all US "friends", that is NOT the case. And not a Trump thing either, or even a Republican thing. USA is quite happy in screwing with "friends", if it will benefit some random lobby. There is a quite long history of USA doing coups, sabotage, and so on, against its own "friends".
ezst 1y ago
Yeah, that ship sailed the second time Americans voted for him.
- maxdo 1y ago
  Sure , trump administration trying to protect associate members of eu is not as good partner as China who directly support Russia , Iran and other country trying to wipe west, very logical
  - rob_c 1y ago
    Don't worry they're just upset that the cheap toys from foxcon suicide plants are going to get out of reach. Once everything dies down the people complaining will find something else to moan about. Prices will normalise regardless of where things are manufactured that's the result of supply and demand. If people aren't willing to pay a bit extra maybe they never really needed luxury good X. Ofc there's fools who over optimized their supply chain in the name of "modern economics of growth" and they'll get a wake-up call about stability and not bowing to shareholders. It's just a shame for most that that lesson will be in the form of layoffs and bankruptcy vs a CEO digging deep and personally reinvesting back in the company they're supposed to believe in.
  - ezst 1y ago
    Sure, trump administration threatening members of the EU of war (economic or territorial) counts as "trying to protect". No dissonance in that whatsoever.
redleader55 1y ago
I don't think most people would contest the 100 years you mentioned. If we look at the military investments US did since Clinton(so, last 30 years), you'll notice a trend of looking after it's own interests before the ones of the world. An example is the lack of investment in destroyers to patrol the seas, while at the same time the focus shifted to super-carriers which are good for one thing: obliterate a single, powerful country. This is not just Trump, but everyone after Bush Sr.
- p_ing 1y ago
  There are 78 Arleigh Burkes completed, six in the build stage, and 15 on order. There were only 31 Spruances and 4 Kidds. That seems like an investment in destroyers, and much more capable ones than it's predecessors at that. Argubly more capable than even the Ticonderoga. But maybe you mean something else I'm not groking.
motorest 1y ago
> US has been a reliable partner post WWII for 95%+ of the time. The current US administration has been threatening two separate NATO allies with invasion and annexation. Not even Russia, with their daily Russian last warnings of nuclear Armageddon, dare being that hostile.
scotty79 1y ago
You know the joke. You can build churches your entire life, but screw a goat once and that's how they are going to call you. Trust is a funny thing like that. You do have to do it all the time, but if you fail even once without extremely good reason you lose it all.
contagiousflow 1y ago
Don't ever look into the US's involvement in Latin America if you want to keep believing this
bigfudge 1y ago
But the signs are not good that the US will become more trustworthy again any time soon. The only back pressure on trump seems to be MAGA conspiracy theorists who look - if it’s possible - even less reliable than trump.
Planktonne 1y ago
Not in the most recent years though. People aren't saying that the US has always been unreliable, but that it is becoming more so. Averaging over a large window while ignoring the trend is not reasonable.
frollogaston 1y ago
Even under Trump, it's been a lot more words than action

scotty79 1y ago

In that case it's super cheap.

motorest 1y ago
> In that case it's super cheap. It might be, but it's also pretty stupid to use that as a selling point to convince the west to welcome that play as something remotely in their best interests. It isn't.

maxdo 1y ago

Right , just to remind that China is the country that supports Proxy wars with west ( Ukraine ), supports Iran , a country that placed tariffs on whole industries, like cars, software , spy and buy technology to replace anything advanced. A country willing to cut mineral supply anytime they don’t like anything is good partner and friend of EU , lol, how delusional someone can be ? Even current US Administration sends Patriots and military support to Ukraine, while China is sponsoring WAR, help Russia to keep up with war killing people around the world. China can end that war in 1 week if they really want. US spent fortune to protect collective west while countries like Germany almost dismantled their army in the past. Very rational thinking , sure. China will wipe out entire west with technological superiority in the next decade or two without west being united.

rfrey 1y ago
> without west being united If that is true, perhaps the US should stop destroying the western alliance.
- maxdo 1y ago
  perhaps lot of european people need to have a wake up call. Europe is involved in a proxy war of China vs US. where EU associate member is fighting with china proxy, Russia. Other proxies are Iran with their satelites, without china neither Iran or Russia would not survive current wars they sponsor agaist west. as much as I hate current US admin, they push to increase NATO spending etc. how is that not "uniting" ?
  - motorest 1y ago
    > perhaps lot of european people need to have a wake up call. You haven't been paying attention. Even to this thread. Let me be very clear: The US proved to be a very unreliable and outright hostile partner. At this point, it is not clear whether the US is more hostile to the collective west than the likes of China. Therefore, let the US keep their backyard TSMC. It changes nothing. It helps nothing. It is not to be trusted. That is the wake-up call.

Our_Benefactors 1y ago

Potato, potahto > It would be the cost of granting the US a leverage against the collective west. Bad faith argument. “Collective west” as if the entire west aside from the US is a united bloc. Laughable.