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There is a lot of accidental discharge happening when people holster their pistol improperly and the trigger snags on something or they inadvertently press the

by ummonk 1y ago

There is a lot of accidental discharge happening when people holster their pistol improperly and the trigger snags on something or they inadvertently press the trigger while grabbing it. However, I’ve seen at least one footage of a Sig 320 discharging while properly holstered (Sig tried to claim the retention hood wasn’t properly closed but it clearly was): https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
lokar 1y ago
Not knowing anything about guns I would assume you would engage the safety when putting the weapon in the holster. Is that not true?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- akerl_ 1y ago
  ~"It's complicated". There's really 2 different things here: Firstly, there's "How many things are between my finger on the trigger and shooting the gun". The furthest you get is not having a round in the chamber, where you have to pull back and release the slide to chamber a round. In that state, basically nothing you do to the trigger or any other part of the gun will result in a discharge. You could use the gun to hammer a nail into a board and it would be really inefficient but also not result in you shooting anybody. From there, you can have a round in the chamber but the safety on. Some guns have no safety. Some guns have more than one (a common combination is a toggle safety and then a bar built into the trigger that must be pulled first before the trigger can be pulled). The safety's job is to stop the gun from slamming the firing pin into the back of the round. All of this matters a lot for the kind of issues that were common with Serpa holsters, where users tended to slide their finger along near the trigger and were accidentally pulling it as part of their draw from the holster. Secondly, there's "is there anything stopping the firing pin from just smacking the round and firing it w/o the trigger or anything else being involved". In some guns, the firing pin is physically blocked from striking the round until the trigger is pulled back: there's a piece of metal or other impediment that's in the way, and when you pull the trigger it slides out of the way and then the mechanism pushes the firing pin forward. But in other guns, that isn't the case: the firing pin is held away from the round by some style of tension, but isn't physically blocked. On those guns, if you have a round in the chamber and you whack the gun in the wrong direction, the firing pin can push into the round and fire it. Sig's prior claims were that this was not possible on the P320. Evidence suggests that they are incorrect.
- snapetom 1y ago
  This is a hard question to answer, but I'll try to boil it down to this specific firearm. Many handguns, like all Glocks and many Sigs, these days are "striker fired," meaning there's an internal hammer that strikes the hammer versus an external hammer. Internal hammers are more complicated than external hammers, and that includes, in the case of Glocks, two built-in safeties internally that would prevent misfires. The only way they would fire is if the trigger is pulled. Period. There are no external safeties for the operator to engage with these handguns. They will only go off the trigger is pulled - so drops should not set it off, nor the actions in the video. You have to intentionally pull the trigger for the gun to go off, which is the ultimate last word in safeties. There are still semiautos with external safeties hammers, the most famous being the 1911. These are what's called single actions. The trigger weight (amount of pull on the trigger) is relatively light, so they have an external safety for the operator to engage/disengage. I personally prefer single actions, hammer cocked, safety engaged, but this is always a very, very personal preference by people that carry. I own Glocks, but I would not carry one because of the lack of external safety, however, I would never criticize anyone that does. This is 100% strictly boils down to what the person is comfortable doing.
  - dmoy 1y ago
    > Glocks, two built-in safeties internally that would prevent misfires. The only way they would fire is if the trigger is pulled. Period. Two built in safeties, plus a half-cocked striker instead of fully cocked like Sig. Another big difference is that one of the safeties is a physical thing sitting in between the striker and the primer. The equivalent on a sig 320 is a physical thing sitting in front of a lug attached to the striker, not actually in between the striker and the primer. That makes it a single point of failure, because if the lug shears off of the striker, the gun immediately discharges. The big failure case for a Glock is something (drawstring, etc) getting into the holster and pulling the trigger. If you commit to never holstering without going really slow and shining a light down in there to verify nothing is getting at the trigger, it's safe. Which works if you just never take it out of the holster except at the range. Remove the holster and gun as a unit, stick holster and gun together in a safe, etc.
  - matt-attack 1y ago
- deelowe 1y ago
  Many modern guns for personal protection do not have manually actuated safeties and instead rely on other mechanisms to prevent accidental discharge. For example, glocks have a "trigger safety." Without getting into minutia, these sort of features do a fine job of ensuring the gun does not fire unless the trigger is intentionally actuated. The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. A long time ago there were quite a few major incidents involving police and manual safeties which resulted in most departments changing their policies such that they carry with the safety off or, typically these days, glocks which have no manual safety. Regarding the p320. For one, the 320 does not have a trigger safety. In fact, there are numerous "innovations" on this firearm which were made to cut costs, improve trigger feel, and various other things. This rose a lot of suspicion when the gun first came out actually - especially the lack of a trigger safety which many consider essential for striker fire guns intended for carrying on your person. On top of that, sig did end up making a p320 with a safety as this was a military requirement. The thing is, it is possible that the "innovative" sear mechanism within the p320 may allow the gun to fire even when the safety is engaged. In fact, there have been reports of just that happening. The gun that was being carried in Air Force incident is the military version of the p320 which does in fact have a manual safety. Also, the leaked reports state the incident happened whenever the gun was in the holster and the holster was removed and placed on a desk facing the victim. This is when the gun misfired striking the victim in the chest. There is speculation that the gun may have in fact had the safety engaged whenever this happened. If so, this would explain the prompt response by the AirForce. Regardless, the purpose of manual safeties are not to prevent guns from discharging on their own (aka. "uncommanded"). Manual safeties are intended to protect against "accidental" discharges where the trigger gets pulled "accidentally." That's not what happened in the above video or the AirForce incident. One more thing to note. The officer in this video was using a Sig Sauer holster so there should be no risk of the holster itself being the problem.
  - solatic 1y ago
    > The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. I know there are a lot of people who share this opinion, but speaking as ex-military, I think it's quite disingenuous and dangerous. Real life isn't some old-fashioned Western film where draw speed matters. If an adversary is malicious, carrying a round in the chamber, and decides to pull on you, he has the element of surprise. There is no real-world situation where you are really just that much better at drawing and firing accurately that you will out-draw an adversary who drew on you first, with the possible exception of Special Forces / Navy SEAL types who drill it ad-nauseum and had 99th-percentile reaction speed to begin with. But thinking that ordinary people can do it is sheer hubris. Thinking you can do it from concealed carry is utterly laughable. In a real world firefight you're either close enough where martial arts is relevant or you're not. If martial arts are relevant, then the guns are irrelevant. If you're further away, what matters is whether you can get behind cover, which will give you time to unholster your weapon, disengage the safety, and chamber a round. You don't decide to carry a gun in public because you think it will save you if someone walks up to you from behind and decides to shoot you in the back. You do it for the times when gunfights are not resolved with the first shot. Responsible citizens carry their guns in such a way that prioritizes the safety of those around them before their own personal safety.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  The short answer is that modern handgun design leans away from safeties that must be actively toggled by the user in favor of automatic safeties and interlocks that are transparent to the user, like the seat switch in a riding mower. Manual safeties still exist but they're considered an accessory feature.
rhcom2 1y ago
That video is nuts. Should never happen

by ummonk 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

lokar 1y ago

Not knowing anything about guns I would assume you would engage the safety when putting the weapon in the holster. Is that not true?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
akerl_ 1y ago
~"It's complicated". There's really 2 different things here: Firstly, there's "How many things are between my finger on the trigger and shooting the gun". The furthest you get is not having a round in the chamber, where you have to pull back and release the slide to chamber a round. In that state, basically nothing you do to the trigger or any other part of the gun will result in a discharge. You could use the gun to hammer a nail into a board and it would be really inefficient but also not result in you shooting anybody. From there, you can have a round in the chamber but the safety on. Some guns have no safety. Some guns have more than one (a common combination is a toggle safety and then a bar built into the trigger that must be pulled first before the trigger can be pulled). The safety's job is to stop the gun from slamming the firing pin into the back of the round. All of this matters a lot for the kind of issues that were common with Serpa holsters, where users tended to slide their finger along near the trigger and were accidentally pulling it as part of their draw from the holster. Secondly, there's "is there anything stopping the firing pin from just smacking the round and firing it w/o the trigger or anything else being involved". In some guns, the firing pin is physically blocked from striking the round until the trigger is pulled back: there's a piece of metal or other impediment that's in the way, and when you pull the trigger it slides out of the way and then the mechanism pushes the firing pin forward. But in other guns, that isn't the case: the firing pin is held away from the round by some style of tension, but isn't physically blocked. On those guns, if you have a round in the chamber and you whack the gun in the wrong direction, the firing pin can push into the round and fire it. Sig's prior claims were that this was not possible on the P320. Evidence suggests that they are incorrect.
snapetom 1y ago
This is a hard question to answer, but I'll try to boil it down to this specific firearm. Many handguns, like all Glocks and many Sigs, these days are "striker fired," meaning there's an internal hammer that strikes the hammer versus an external hammer. Internal hammers are more complicated than external hammers, and that includes, in the case of Glocks, two built-in safeties internally that would prevent misfires. The only way they would fire is if the trigger is pulled. Period. There are no external safeties for the operator to engage with these handguns. They will only go off the trigger is pulled - so drops should not set it off, nor the actions in the video. You have to intentionally pull the trigger for the gun to go off, which is the ultimate last word in safeties. There are still semiautos with external safeties hammers, the most famous being the 1911. These are what's called single actions. The trigger weight (amount of pull on the trigger) is relatively light, so they have an external safety for the operator to engage/disengage. I personally prefer single actions, hammer cocked, safety engaged, but this is always a very, very personal preference by people that carry. I own Glocks, but I would not carry one because of the lack of external safety, however, I would never criticize anyone that does. This is 100% strictly boils down to what the person is comfortable doing.
- dmoy 1y ago
  > Glocks, two built-in safeties internally that would prevent misfires. The only way they would fire is if the trigger is pulled. Period. Two built in safeties, plus a half-cocked striker instead of fully cocked like Sig. Another big difference is that one of the safeties is a physical thing sitting in between the striker and the primer. The equivalent on a sig 320 is a physical thing sitting in front of a lug attached to the striker, not actually in between the striker and the primer. That makes it a single point of failure, because if the lug shears off of the striker, the gun immediately discharges. The big failure case for a Glock is something (drawstring, etc) getting into the holster and pulling the trigger. If you commit to never holstering without going really slow and shining a light down in there to verify nothing is getting at the trigger, it's safe. Which works if you just never take it out of the holster except at the range. Remove the holster and gun as a unit, stick holster and gun together in a safe, etc.
- matt-attack 1y ago
deelowe 1y ago
Many modern guns for personal protection do not have manually actuated safeties and instead rely on other mechanisms to prevent accidental discharge. For example, glocks have a "trigger safety." Without getting into minutia, these sort of features do a fine job of ensuring the gun does not fire unless the trigger is intentionally actuated. The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. A long time ago there were quite a few major incidents involving police and manual safeties which resulted in most departments changing their policies such that they carry with the safety off or, typically these days, glocks which have no manual safety. Regarding the p320. For one, the 320 does not have a trigger safety. In fact, there are numerous "innovations" on this firearm which were made to cut costs, improve trigger feel, and various other things. This rose a lot of suspicion when the gun first came out actually - especially the lack of a trigger safety which many consider essential for striker fire guns intended for carrying on your person. On top of that, sig did end up making a p320 with a safety as this was a military requirement. The thing is, it is possible that the "innovative" sear mechanism within the p320 may allow the gun to fire even when the safety is engaged. In fact, there have been reports of just that happening. The gun that was being carried in Air Force incident is the military version of the p320 which does in fact have a manual safety. Also, the leaked reports state the incident happened whenever the gun was in the holster and the holster was removed and placed on a desk facing the victim. This is when the gun misfired striking the victim in the chest. There is speculation that the gun may have in fact had the safety engaged whenever this happened. If so, this would explain the prompt response by the AirForce. Regardless, the purpose of manual safeties are not to prevent guns from discharging on their own (aka. "uncommanded"). Manual safeties are intended to protect against "accidental" discharges where the trigger gets pulled "accidentally." That's not what happened in the above video or the AirForce incident. One more thing to note. The officer in this video was using a Sig Sauer holster so there should be no risk of the holster itself being the problem.
- solatic 1y ago
  > The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. I know there are a lot of people who share this opinion, but speaking as ex-military, I think it's quite disingenuous and dangerous. Real life isn't some old-fashioned Western film where draw speed matters. If an adversary is malicious, carrying a round in the chamber, and decides to pull on you, he has the element of surprise. There is no real-world situation where you are really just that much better at drawing and firing accurately that you will out-draw an adversary who drew on you first, with the possible exception of Special Forces / Navy SEAL types who drill it ad-nauseum and had 99th-percentile reaction speed to begin with. But thinking that ordinary people can do it is sheer hubris. Thinking you can do it from concealed carry is utterly laughable. In a real world firefight you're either close enough where martial arts is relevant or you're not. If martial arts are relevant, then the guns are irrelevant. If you're further away, what matters is whether you can get behind cover, which will give you time to unholster your weapon, disengage the safety, and chamber a round. You don't decide to carry a gun in public because you think it will save you if someone walks up to you from behind and decides to shoot you in the back. You do it for the times when gunfights are not resolved with the first shot. Responsible citizens carry their guns in such a way that prioritizes the safety of those around them before their own personal safety.
potato3732842 1y ago
The short answer is that modern handgun design leans away from safeties that must be actively toggled by the user in favor of automatic safeties and interlocks that are transparent to the user, like the seat switch in a riding mower. Manual safeties still exist but they're considered an accessory feature.

rhcom2 1y ago

That video is nuts. Should never happen