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I am in Thailand. Fraud is a much smaller issue because it’s a push-based system. You cannot withdrawal from someone else’s account just by knowing the number,

by 55555 1y ago

I am in Thailand. Fraud is a much smaller issue because it’s a push-based system. You cannot withdrawal from someone else’s account just by knowing the number, unlike with credit cards.

Loughla 1y ago
What about fighting charges? In the US, if I flag a charge on my credit card it's immediately cancelled and they deal with it. How does that work?
- lmz 1y ago
  Not well is my guess. You best treat it as a cash equivalent, because it's a push method.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- hahn-kev 1y ago
  They way it works I don't receive a charge like you do with visa, the merchant presents a code, you scan it when your bank app and then the bank app asks if you want to send # of money to [merchant name], if you don't want to pay it then you don't approve the transfer in your app on your phone. However after the fact there's less options, I've never gone through
  - cornholio 1y ago
    Bundling consumer protection with the payment system was always a bad idea. Payments need to be instantaneous and free. The returns/refunds can be handled offline by a mutually agreed facilitator that does not have a monopoly on the payment system. You can also have a legal mandate that all internet purchase, for example, should employ such a service, that charges a market fee and is then liable for making fair decisions.
    - mirzap 1y ago
      It is not a bad idea. This is how it is supposed to be. My bank offers this even with Mastercard. I have to approve transactions when paying online. It's instant, I finish checkout, and then I receive the push notification asking me to confirm the transaction. I don't know if I would ever use CC in a country where banks don't allow this.
      - xyzzy123 1y ago
        That is authorising the transaction and it makes sense for the card issuer to handle that. It's proving that it's "you" using the card and you really intended to pay for that thing. Maybe they SMS 2FA you, maybe they have a biometric check, etc. All cool. The case where you have a dispute with the merchant (i.e transaction is authorised but problem is 1 layer up - you feel that reality doesn't match up with the payment record!) is different. You paid as intended but the thing you wanted didn't happen. Right now things are bundled together. Sometimes this is handled by marketplace (think amazon, vs paypal/ebay and their different balances of favouring merchant vs consumer) but overall (e.g. consider shopify who are basically uncontactable in case of merchant disputes) I don't think the whole payments system makes this very clear. In practice it is sort of a shifting balance between various parties. There are actually big questions of who eats risk between consumer, platform, merchant and various payment processors for a given transaction and things are a bit obscured. In practice all the parties EXCEPT the consumer know what is really going on. It could be made much more clear who has the responsibility for resolving merchant disputes and their records could be made public, and this could be a more explicit point of difference in payment / marketplace offerings. I think lots of people would make different decisions about where and how they bought things if they could see statistics about how disputes are handled. I am not arguing for any specific method of solving disputes or more government intervention in general, I just think that if things were more transparent (mandatory reporting) fewer people would feel ripped off, people could make more informed decisions, and marketplaces / processors who are adept at resolving disputes would be rewarded as they deserve. Basically, the market would work better.
        xyzzy123 1y ago
  - Loughla 1y ago
    That's not really what I asked. What happens if a fraudulent charge happens?
    - crazylogger 1y ago
      If payments are always approved by the payer with their PIN / FaceID, then the idea of a fraudulent charge is just undefined. Like you hand cash to someone. The transaction is done at the moment money changes hand. You don't get to call someone to snatch the money back to you against the payee's will. For online purchase, for example, buyer pays the marketplace (e.g. taobao.com) to temporarily hold the money -> seller ships the goods -> buyer confirms goods are received -> marketplace pays seller. If there is a question, you take it to the marketplace to sort things out according to marketplace & seller policy. Either way, the payment provider doesn't concern itself with any of this - it only routes money according to payer's request.
- porridgeraisin 1y ago
  It does not work as seamlessly as CC w.r.t chargebacks. What a lot of folks do is they pay for most purchases with UPI but try and ensure there is some kind of "undo" button somewhere for large purchases. If I am making a purchase on a shady website, or making a large purchase, I will pay using CC so that I can chargeback and the CC company will deal with it. However, even if I am buying a laptop or whatever on Amazon, I know that amazon will deal with returns and stuff properly, so I would just UPI it. There is also the matter of credit card offers and points and what not. If there is a good discount then CC is used.
- whatevaa 1y ago
  What happens when it's so easy and people start abusing this system?
  - john01dav 1y ago
    May be related: Discover refused a charge back from when Walmart sold me invisibly unusable food in a sealed container and was creating bureaucratic hoops to return it. They told me that they blanket deny all charge backs for food.
- Cthulhu_ 1y ago
  In the Netherlands, possibly more of Europe, you can do a chargeback ("storneren") on automated deductions, which can be used in the case of conflicts, e.g. a company withdrawing money from your account even though you cancelled a subscription.

by 55555 1y ago

I am in Thailand. Fraud is a much smaller issue because it’s a push-based system. You cannot withdrawal from someone else’s account just by knowing the number, unlike with credit cards.

Loughla 1y ago

What about fighting charges? In the US, if I flag a charge on my credit card it's immediately cancelled and they deal with it. How does that work?

lmz 1y ago
Not well is my guess. You best treat it as a cash equivalent, because it's a push method.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
hahn-kev 1y ago
They way it works I don't receive a charge like you do with visa, the merchant presents a code, you scan it when your bank app and then the bank app asks if you want to send # of money to [merchant name], if you don't want to pay it then you don't approve the transfer in your app on your phone. However after the fact there's less options, I've never gone through
- cornholio 1y ago
  Bundling consumer protection with the payment system was always a bad idea. Payments need to be instantaneous and free. The returns/refunds can be handled offline by a mutually agreed facilitator that does not have a monopoly on the payment system. You can also have a legal mandate that all internet purchase, for example, should employ such a service, that charges a market fee and is then liable for making fair decisions.
  - mirzap 1y ago
    It is not a bad idea. This is how it is supposed to be. My bank offers this even with Mastercard. I have to approve transactions when paying online. It's instant, I finish checkout, and then I receive the push notification asking me to confirm the transaction. I don't know if I would ever use CC in a country where banks don't allow this.
    - xyzzy123 1y ago
      That is authorising the transaction and it makes sense for the card issuer to handle that. It's proving that it's "you" using the card and you really intended to pay for that thing. Maybe they SMS 2FA you, maybe they have a biometric check, etc. All cool. The case where you have a dispute with the merchant (i.e transaction is authorised but problem is 1 layer up - you feel that reality doesn't match up with the payment record!) is different. You paid as intended but the thing you wanted didn't happen. Right now things are bundled together. Sometimes this is handled by marketplace (think amazon, vs paypal/ebay and their different balances of favouring merchant vs consumer) but overall (e.g. consider shopify who are basically uncontactable in case of merchant disputes) I don't think the whole payments system makes this very clear. In practice it is sort of a shifting balance between various parties. There are actually big questions of who eats risk between consumer, platform, merchant and various payment processors for a given transaction and things are a bit obscured. In practice all the parties EXCEPT the consumer know what is really going on. It could be made much more clear who has the responsibility for resolving merchant disputes and their records could be made public, and this could be a more explicit point of difference in payment / marketplace offerings. I think lots of people would make different decisions about where and how they bought things if they could see statistics about how disputes are handled. I am not arguing for any specific method of solving disputes or more government intervention in general, I just think that if things were more transparent (mandatory reporting) fewer people would feel ripped off, people could make more informed decisions, and marketplaces / processors who are adept at resolving disputes would be rewarded as they deserve. Basically, the market would work better.
      - xyzzy123 1y ago
- Loughla 1y ago
  That's not really what I asked. What happens if a fraudulent charge happens?
  - crazylogger 1y ago
    If payments are always approved by the payer with their PIN / FaceID, then the idea of a fraudulent charge is just undefined. Like you hand cash to someone. The transaction is done at the moment money changes hand. You don't get to call someone to snatch the money back to you against the payee's will. For online purchase, for example, buyer pays the marketplace (e.g. taobao.com) to temporarily hold the money -> seller ships the goods -> buyer confirms goods are received -> marketplace pays seller. If there is a question, you take it to the marketplace to sort things out according to marketplace & seller policy. Either way, the payment provider doesn't concern itself with any of this - it only routes money according to payer's request.
porridgeraisin 1y ago
It does not work as seamlessly as CC w.r.t chargebacks. What a lot of folks do is they pay for most purchases with UPI but try and ensure there is some kind of "undo" button somewhere for large purchases. If I am making a purchase on a shady website, or making a large purchase, I will pay using CC so that I can chargeback and the CC company will deal with it. However, even if I am buying a laptop or whatever on Amazon, I know that amazon will deal with returns and stuff properly, so I would just UPI it. There is also the matter of credit card offers and points and what not. If there is a good discount then CC is used.
whatevaa 1y ago
What happens when it's so easy and people start abusing this system?
- john01dav 1y ago
  May be related: Discover refused a charge back from when Walmart sold me invisibly unusable food in a sealed container and was creating bureaucratic hoops to return it. They told me that they blanket deny all charge backs for food.
Cthulhu_ 1y ago
In the Netherlands, possibly more of Europe, you can do a chargeback ("storneren") on automated deductions, which can be used in the case of conflicts, e.g. a company withdrawing money from your account even though you cancelled a subscription.