3 ms·

Sure, good stories have details, but a person's choice of detail reveals how they see the world. The comment's mention of "offshore" clearly serves no purpose

by figure8 14y ago

Sure, good stories have details, but a person's choice of detail reveals how they see the world. The comment's mention of "offshore" clearly serves no purpose beyond encouraging stereotype-based thinking. Knowing this programmer was offshore is as irrelevant as knowing their sex or their eye color. We've generally (and I think rightfully) exorcised this language in reference to other characteristics, why not this one? In my experience, programmers who emphasize that "offshore" programmers are bad seem insecure about their own skills and job stability. The same is true of sexist men who go out of their way to mention when a mistake was made by a woman but never explicitly highlight when it was a man.

powertower 14y ago
I understand what you're saying, but it's not bigotry if the "stereotype" is true. "offshore" is synonymous with "cheap(er) labor" in the US programming world, and is an accurate statement since that's what it's generally used for ("let's send it to XXX and it will cost us 1/10 as much")... How many times do you think outsourcing happens in the US because they are looking for higher-quality code? 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% of the time? "cheap(er) labor" is also synonymous with a bad product/service, because you often get what you pay for. Are there exceptions to all this? Yes. Sometimes you can't find good quality coders in the US, but I doubt this is why outsourcing happens most of the time. He might have generalized by adding that detail ("offshore") but that's not biggotry IMO as much as it is a flavoring.
- manojlds 14y ago
  Offshore is, most of the times, about getting the same quality of work at cheaper cost. How is it cheaper? Not because it is shoddy work, but the economics in the other country work out that way. How can you equate cheaper price = lower quality. If you are looking for people in US alone, then cheaper = lower quality. Since another factor of the equation, the country, is changing, that is not the case.
  - powertower 14y ago
    And is that what happens? You get same quality code at cheaper prices? Like Wal-Mart gets cheaper made goods from China that last as long as their more expensive domestic counter-parts? Or how Dell has retained it's customer satisfaction ratings by using Indian call-centers? I think it's been established that when you outsource for cost, you get back a product that cost you more in the long run. Again, there are exceptions to this, but that's not what we are talking about.
    - manojlds 14y ago
      No, it means that they went cheaper than they ought to.Of course, you get what you payed for. But the scale is different. Just because it is cheaper, it does not imply poor quality.
      - stickfigure 14y ago
        The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. -- Damon Runyon
  - fredsanford 14y ago
    I think the difference between the parent post and the grandparent post is experience with "outsourced to overseas" code. Having worked extensively with outsourced code (4+ years) I can tell you without a doubt the vast majority is poor quality crap, more so than "insourced code" by far. But... Everyone produces bad, buggy code at times.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    > Offshore is, most of the times, about getting the same quality of work at cheaper cost The problem is that the person who evaluates quality has no real understanding of what is being evaluated. This leads to price being the deciding factor. Most of the code I've seen coming from price-driven software factories is awful.
    - 14y ago
j_baker 14y ago
Really? Because based on the story edw519 gave, it sounds an awful lot like the offshore programmer had just made a silly little mistake while the "client" was the one who was actively incompetent/manipulative. If anything, his choice of details presents offshore programmers in a good light and American programmers in a bad light.

by figure8 14y ago

powertower 14y ago

I understand what you're saying, but it's not bigotry if the "stereotype" is true. "offshore" is synonymous with "cheap(er) labor" in the US programming world, and is an accurate statement since that's what it's generally used for ("let's send it to XXX and it will cost us 1/10 as much")... How many times do you think outsourcing happens in the US because they are looking for higher-quality code? 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% of the time? "cheap(er) labor" is also synonymous with a bad product/service, because you often get what you pay for. Are there exceptions to all this? Yes. Sometimes you can't find good quality coders in the US, but I doubt this is why outsourcing happens most of the time. He might have generalized by adding that detail ("offshore") but that's not biggotry IMO as much as it is a flavoring.

manojlds 14y ago
Offshore is, most of the times, about getting the same quality of work at cheaper cost. How is it cheaper? Not because it is shoddy work, but the economics in the other country work out that way. How can you equate cheaper price = lower quality. If you are looking for people in US alone, then cheaper = lower quality. Since another factor of the equation, the country, is changing, that is not the case.
- powertower 14y ago
  And is that what happens? You get same quality code at cheaper prices? Like Wal-Mart gets cheaper made goods from China that last as long as their more expensive domestic counter-parts? Or how Dell has retained it's customer satisfaction ratings by using Indian call-centers? I think it's been established that when you outsource for cost, you get back a product that cost you more in the long run. Again, there are exceptions to this, but that's not what we are talking about.
  - manojlds 14y ago
    No, it means that they went cheaper than they ought to.Of course, you get what you payed for. But the scale is different. Just because it is cheaper, it does not imply poor quality.
    - stickfigure 14y ago
      The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. -- Damon Runyon
- fredsanford 14y ago
  I think the difference between the parent post and the grandparent post is experience with "outsourced to overseas" code. Having worked extensively with outsourced code (4+ years) I can tell you without a doubt the vast majority is poor quality crap, more so than "insourced code" by far. But... Everyone produces bad, buggy code at times.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  > Offshore is, most of the times, about getting the same quality of work at cheaper cost The problem is that the person who evaluates quality has no real understanding of what is being evaluated. This leads to price being the deciding factor. Most of the code I've seen coming from price-driven software factories is awful.
  - 14y ago

j_baker 14y ago

Really? Because based on the story edw519 gave, it sounds an awful lot like the offshore programmer had just made a silly little mistake while the "client" was the one who was actively incompetent/manipulative. If anything, his choice of details presents offshore programmers in a good light and American programmers in a bad light.