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They are running circles around competitors in build quality, technology, range, performance, etc. What happened is that car companies went to China to outsourc

They are running circles around competitors in build quality, technology, range, performance, etc. What happened is that car companies went to China to outsource production, taught the Chinese everything there is to know about car manufacturing, and the Chinese paid attention.

epolanski 1y ago
The only valuable and hard to replicate know-how was in ICEs, all the rest you could buy or figure out.
- epistasis 1y ago
  If that were the case, then US manufacturers would be doing far better with EVs than they are. Yet they are not able to keep up with BYD and are failing at hitting their own milestones.
  - jillesvangurp 1y ago
    That's because the Chinese are far ahead in battery technology and related supply chains. US manufacturers are only now starting to use LFP in larger volumes. Reason: limited amount of local producers capable of producing LFP batteries. This is starting to change as some local producers are now licensing technology from the likes of CATL. For example Ford is doing this. They are years behind with sodium ion which is being mass produced in China already and being used in ultra cheap EVs that simply don't exist in the US market. And then solid state batteries are also something that China looks to be on track with to start producing in larger volumes in the next year (low volume production is already happening). And that's despite companies like Amprius, Quantumscape, etc. being based in the US. In short, the US car manufacturing industry has long lost its leadership position. And that's including Tesla that until a few years ago was producing better EVs than others. No longer true and they are struggling to keep up currently.
    - epistasis 1y ago
      Agreed, and that's my point: US companies only valued ICE skills, which has left them weak and vulnerable now that the truly valuable skills are in batteries and looking for efficiencies with a far simplified rest of product. By treating batteries as a component roughly on par with an air filter, US manufacturers have lost out on multiple R&D cycles and put themselves in such a poor strategic position that it's unlikely they will be able to survive without major restructuring.
wordofx 1y ago
This is not true at all. Quality of cars in China is abysmal compared to what they ship to EU/AU/NZ. If you try driving a BYD in China vs say Australia. It’s like 2 completely different cars. What they ship internationally meets standards. But in China they don’t live up to those and standards.
- jillesvangurp 1y ago
  So you are saying that they adapt to the local market but are perfectly capable of selling perfectly good vehicles abroad when they want to? This doesn't match what I know of the market. It also doesn't make much sense. Basically most of the BYD market is China but it's a hyper competitive market where there's a price war going on. I'd say there's very little room for chronic under performers in that market. As there are literally dozens of companies eager to step up and do better. From what I've seen if you want to get a glimpse of the future of road transport, you need to go to China.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    I don't know if the claim itself is correct, but I am confused why you say it "doesn't make much sense"? Surely the Chinese market being hyper competitive and in a price war would imply bosses selling to this market needing to cut costs even when doing so comes with the consequence of reduced long-term quality?
- lossolo 1y ago
  That's not my experience, I was in China, drove the cars and also tried them in the EU.
  - wordofx 1y ago
    Donno about your experience but mine was in China the BYD I drove looked fancier and had more features but the build quality wasn’t there. It felt cheaply put together. It didn’t feel like there was weight to the car. If I hit something would I survive? There was no weight to the door. Things felt loose. In Australia my friends BYD is great. Feels safe. Feels solid. Drive smoothly. Makes me want to replace my Toyota with one.

epolanski 1y ago

The only valuable and hard to replicate know-how was in ICEs, all the rest you could buy or figure out.

epistasis 1y ago
If that were the case, then US manufacturers would be doing far better with EVs than they are. Yet they are not able to keep up with BYD and are failing at hitting their own milestones.
- jillesvangurp 1y ago
  That's because the Chinese are far ahead in battery technology and related supply chains. US manufacturers are only now starting to use LFP in larger volumes. Reason: limited amount of local producers capable of producing LFP batteries. This is starting to change as some local producers are now licensing technology from the likes of CATL. For example Ford is doing this. They are years behind with sodium ion which is being mass produced in China already and being used in ultra cheap EVs that simply don't exist in the US market. And then solid state batteries are also something that China looks to be on track with to start producing in larger volumes in the next year (low volume production is already happening). And that's despite companies like Amprius, Quantumscape, etc. being based in the US. In short, the US car manufacturing industry has long lost its leadership position. And that's including Tesla that until a few years ago was producing better EVs than others. No longer true and they are struggling to keep up currently.
  - epistasis 1y ago
    Agreed, and that's my point: US companies only valued ICE skills, which has left them weak and vulnerable now that the truly valuable skills are in batteries and looking for efficiencies with a far simplified rest of product. By treating batteries as a component roughly on par with an air filter, US manufacturers have lost out on multiple R&D cycles and put themselves in such a poor strategic position that it's unlikely they will be able to survive without major restructuring.

wordofx 1y ago

This is not true at all. Quality of cars in China is abysmal compared to what they ship to EU/AU/NZ. If you try driving a BYD in China vs say Australia. It’s like 2 completely different cars. What they ship internationally meets standards. But in China they don’t live up to those and standards.

jillesvangurp 1y ago
So you are saying that they adapt to the local market but are perfectly capable of selling perfectly good vehicles abroad when they want to? This doesn't match what I know of the market. It also doesn't make much sense. Basically most of the BYD market is China but it's a hyper competitive market where there's a price war going on. I'd say there's very little room for chronic under performers in that market. As there are literally dozens of companies eager to step up and do better. From what I've seen if you want to get a glimpse of the future of road transport, you need to go to China.
- ben_w 1y ago
  I don't know if the claim itself is correct, but I am confused why you say it "doesn't make much sense"? Surely the Chinese market being hyper competitive and in a price war would imply bosses selling to this market needing to cut costs even when doing so comes with the consequence of reduced long-term quality?
lossolo 1y ago
That's not my experience, I was in China, drove the cars and also tried them in the EU.
- wordofx 1y ago
  Donno about your experience but mine was in China the BYD I drove looked fancier and had more features but the build quality wasn’t there. It felt cheaply put together. It didn’t feel like there was weight to the car. If I hit something would I survive? There was no weight to the door. Things felt loose. In Australia my friends BYD is great. Feels safe. Feels solid. Drive smoothly. Makes me want to replace my Toyota with one.