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I mean this is obviously a false dichotomy. A few years ago I could have said that when you let bots interact with users you always got Tay. I refuse to believe

I mean this is obviously a false dichotomy. A few years ago I could have said that when you let bots interact with users you always got Tay. I refuse to believe that our options are a bot programmed to sound like the guardian or one that wants to rape will stancil. And I do not think that failing to find a correct balance means we should stop trying to improve the level of balance we can achieve.

jakelazaroff 1y ago
My point is that "anti-woke" or whatever is not balanced. We've constructed statistical models based on enormous corpora of English text, and those models keep telling us that there is not really a statistical difference between whatever Elon Musk is trying to create and MechaHitler! I'm not saying this is conclusive evidence, but I am saying it's our best inference from the data we have so far.
- zmgsabst 1y ago
  Or that rhetoric like yours is common, so LLMs conflate unrelated ideas — such as opposition to neo-Marxist philosophy and Nazism.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakelazaroff 1y ago
    Nazism and anti-Marxism are absolutely not unrelated! And that's not just rhetoric like mine, either: for example, the hero image on the Britannica article "Were the Nazis Socialists?" is a banner at Nazi parade that reads "Death to Marxism". [1] That doesn't mean that anti-Marxists are all Nazis, or vice versa. But the claim that they're totally unrelated is not correct at all. [1] https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists
    - zmgsabst 1y ago
      I’m still having trouble finding the gap between fascism and socialism, when reading their manifesto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto > That doesn't mean that anti-Marxists are all Nazis, or vice versa. But the claim that they're totally unrelated is not correct at all. This is a heavily propagandized topic — and the conflating of, eg, American liberal capitalist opposition to Marxism as “Nazi” is both a result of that and modern dishonest rhetoric. That rhetoric confuses LLMs.
      - jakelazaroff 1y ago
        Conflating socialism with fascism and then claiming that other people are confusing LLMs? The heavy propaganda is coming from inside the house!
  - timdev2 1y ago
    Isn't strident opposition to "neo-Marxist philosophy" actually highly correlated with weird/reactionary ethno-nationalism?
    - zmgsabst 1y ago
      No, eg, liberal capitalist Americans oppose Marxism — and the adoption of neo-Marxist ideas has collapsed movie and game sales because their ideology is widely unpopular. That’s a trope by Marxists to attempt to normalize alt-left ideology by accusing anyone who objects of being Nazis; a trope that’s become tired in the US and minimizes the true radical nature of the Nazi regime.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        Which movies and games call for shared ownership of the means of production? I have a suspicion you don't really know what Marxism is about, but like using it because it sounds scary to you.
        jakelazaroff 1y ago
        Notice the motte and bailey here: using the uncontroversial "liberal capitalist Americans oppose Marxism" claim to advance the idea that whatever social views they call "neo-Marxism" are unpopular.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        ...and to further smear Marxism by associating it with whatever is unpopular, even if it's unrelated to the ideology.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    Please define "neo-Marxist philosophy". As an actual Marxist, I would love to hear of this strain of philosophy.
    - zmgsabst 1y ago
      Marxism equipped with “critical theories”, typically focused on tribal grievance narratives rather than class struggle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Marxism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Marxism That answers your sibling reply as well, as it’s clear where such “critical theories” and grievance narratives have entered movies and games.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        That is not a definition. What is the philosophical framework? What is critically analyzed by those theories? What is "clear"? Where are all the bad bad Marxists hiding? In my experience, y'know, as a Marxist, all Hollywood has ever pumped out is pro-capitalist propaganda. To say there's any Marxism in it is downright insulting. I believe that Marxism has become an abstract target for conservatives to project their grievances on. Zizek also spoke to this at his debate with Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDOSOQLLO-U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDOSOQLLO-U
intermerda 1y ago
What about a bot that doesn't like child molesters? Won't that make it sound like the guardian and anti-conservative?

jakelazaroff 1y ago

My point is that "anti-woke" or whatever is not balanced. We've constructed statistical models based on enormous corpora of English text, and those models keep telling us that there is not really a statistical difference between whatever Elon Musk is trying to create and MechaHitler! I'm not saying this is conclusive evidence, but I am saying it's our best inference from the data we have so far.

zmgsabst 1y ago
Or that rhetoric like yours is common, so LLMs conflate unrelated ideas — such as opposition to neo-Marxist philosophy and Nazism.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- jakelazaroff 1y ago
  Nazism and anti-Marxism are absolutely not unrelated! And that's not just rhetoric like mine, either: for example, the hero image on the Britannica article "Were the Nazis Socialists?" is a banner at Nazi parade that reads "Death to Marxism". [1] That doesn't mean that anti-Marxists are all Nazis, or vice versa. But the claim that they're totally unrelated is not correct at all. [1] https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists https://www.britannica.com/story/were-the-nazis-socialists
  - zmgsabst 1y ago
    I’m still having trouble finding the gap between fascism and socialism, when reading their manifesto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto > That doesn't mean that anti-Marxists are all Nazis, or vice versa. But the claim that they're totally unrelated is not correct at all. This is a heavily propagandized topic — and the conflating of, eg, American liberal capitalist opposition to Marxism as “Nazi” is both a result of that and modern dishonest rhetoric. That rhetoric confuses LLMs.
    - jakelazaroff 1y ago
      Conflating socialism with fascism and then claiming that other people are confusing LLMs? The heavy propaganda is coming from inside the house!
- timdev2 1y ago
  Isn't strident opposition to "neo-Marxist philosophy" actually highly correlated with weird/reactionary ethno-nationalism?
  - zmgsabst 1y ago
    No, eg, liberal capitalist Americans oppose Marxism — and the adoption of neo-Marxist ideas has collapsed movie and game sales because their ideology is widely unpopular. That’s a trope by Marxists to attempt to normalize alt-left ideology by accusing anyone who objects of being Nazis; a trope that’s become tired in the US and minimizes the true radical nature of the Nazi regime.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      Which movies and games call for shared ownership of the means of production? I have a suspicion you don't really know what Marxism is about, but like using it because it sounds scary to you.
      - jakelazaroff 1y ago
        Notice the motte and bailey here: using the uncontroversial "liberal capitalist Americans oppose Marxism" claim to advance the idea that whatever social views they call "neo-Marxism" are unpopular.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        ...and to further smear Marxism by associating it with whatever is unpopular, even if it's unrelated to the ideology.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  Please define "neo-Marxist philosophy". As an actual Marxist, I would love to hear of this strain of philosophy.
  - zmgsabst 1y ago
    Marxism equipped with “critical theories”, typically focused on tribal grievance narratives rather than class struggle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Marxism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Marxism That answers your sibling reply as well, as it’s clear where such “critical theories” and grievance narratives have entered movies and games.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      That is not a definition. What is the philosophical framework? What is critically analyzed by those theories? What is "clear"? Where are all the bad bad Marxists hiding? In my experience, y'know, as a Marxist, all Hollywood has ever pumped out is pro-capitalist propaganda. To say there's any Marxism in it is downright insulting. I believe that Marxism has become an abstract target for conservatives to project their grievances on. Zizek also spoke to this at his debate with Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDOSOQLLO-U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDOSOQLLO-U

intermerda 1y ago

What about a bot that doesn't like child molesters? Won't that make it sound like the guardian and anti-conservative?