6 ms·

guys, >The first language should NOT be the easy one, it should be >one that sets up the student's mind and prepare it for >serious computer science. >C is per

by munin 14y ago

guys, >The first language should NOT be the easy one, it should be >one that sets up the student's mind and prepare it for >serious computer science. >C is perfect for that, it forces students to think about >memory and all the low level stuff, as one low-level programmer to another, I hate to break it to you, but "low level programming" is not "serious computer science". the two have very little to do with each other.

lucisferre 14y ago
Ironically C is technically a high level language anyways.
- heretohelp 14y ago
  'ish. C exists in the middle territory between high (colloquially right now) and "original" low-level programming. By all accounts, virtually any language that operates relatively close to the semantics of the machine in terms of operations and memory (pointers are a standard abstraction in assembler) is a low-level language. The only things that detract from C's low-level credentials are that it is more of a hybrid attempt at grafting a harvard machine onto von neumann machines and its functions. The functions/stack are a bit of an abstraction depending on which architecture you're using. Calling C high level isn't accurate or descriptive, but I'd be willing to concede that it's not truly low-level either if you know enough C to explain why. You don't, though.
  - lucisferre 14y ago
    "You don't, though" Interesting, though I'm not sure how my knowledge of C is relevant to the conversation.
    - heretohelp 14y ago
      You made a false assertion about C. o o o Connect the dots.
      - lucisferre 14y ago
        "C is not high level because you don't know C" is not exactly the most cogent of arguments. The rest of it I pretty much agree with, nonetheless the actual definition of "high level" language doesn't change just because you (or I) feel it should, which is why I said it was "technically" high level.
- RonPaul2012 14y ago
  Not if you live in the 2012
  - qznc 14y ago
    Originally, the term "high-level" meant that programs were portable between machine architectures. You can do this in C, but in assembly. This is a precise definition. I cannot find a precise definition, which puts C and Javascript on different levels. Has garbage collection? A big standard library?
    - prodigal_erik 14y ago
      I think there's a spectrum around how many different ways the machine could choose to execute what you wrote. E.g., V8 creates hidden classes rather than naïvely following the prototype chain, where C pretty much dictates how things are actually laid out in memory.
javert 14y ago
That's pretty true. However, in C, you can actually write interesting data structures and algorithms that come up in computer science. I think that makes for good "theory meets practice"-based learning. I'm not saying all algorithms classes should incorporate writing C code all the time. But probably every budding computer scientist or software engineer should take at least one such class. I'm also not saying C is the only language for which this is true. But it's definitely not generally true for interpreted languages. Also, C is pretty much the language everything higher-level is implemented in. So once again, at least some exposure to C can help someone conceptualize what's happening on the computer at every level.
- mistercow 14y ago
  Hmm, can you give an example of a typical "learning CS" level algorithm that you can't implement in, say, JavaScript?
  - z92 14y ago
    B-Tree indexes in JavaScript
    - mistercow 14y ago
      Googling around, I see a number of implementations. What's wrong with them, and why do you feel this is impossible? (And hint: it's guaranteed not to be impossible since JS is Turing complete)
  - killahpriest 14y ago
    Not an algorithm, but used in many. Pointers.
    - mistercow 14y ago
      Emulating pointers in JS is pretty easy; you just wrap the values in objects or arrays.
  - 14y ago

by munin 14y ago

lucisferre 14y ago

Ironically C is technically a high level language anyways.

heretohelp 14y ago
'ish. C exists in the middle territory between high (colloquially right now) and "original" low-level programming. By all accounts, virtually any language that operates relatively close to the semantics of the machine in terms of operations and memory (pointers are a standard abstraction in assembler) is a low-level language. The only things that detract from C's low-level credentials are that it is more of a hybrid attempt at grafting a harvard machine onto von neumann machines and its functions. The functions/stack are a bit of an abstraction depending on which architecture you're using. Calling C high level isn't accurate or descriptive, but I'd be willing to concede that it's not truly low-level either if you know enough C to explain why. You don't, though.
- lucisferre 14y ago
  "You don't, though" Interesting, though I'm not sure how my knowledge of C is relevant to the conversation.
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    You made a false assertion about C. o o o Connect the dots.
    - lucisferre 14y ago
      "C is not high level because you don't know C" is not exactly the most cogent of arguments. The rest of it I pretty much agree with, nonetheless the actual definition of "high level" language doesn't change just because you (or I) feel it should, which is why I said it was "technically" high level.
RonPaul2012 14y ago
Not if you live in the 2012
- qznc 14y ago
  Originally, the term "high-level" meant that programs were portable between machine architectures. You can do this in C, but in assembly. This is a precise definition. I cannot find a precise definition, which puts C and Javascript on different levels. Has garbage collection? A big standard library?
  - prodigal_erik 14y ago
    I think there's a spectrum around how many different ways the machine could choose to execute what you wrote. E.g., V8 creates hidden classes rather than naïvely following the prototype chain, where C pretty much dictates how things are actually laid out in memory.

javert 14y ago

That's pretty true. However, in C, you can actually write interesting data structures and algorithms that come up in computer science. I think that makes for good "theory meets practice"-based learning. I'm not saying all algorithms classes should incorporate writing C code all the time. But probably every budding computer scientist or software engineer should take at least one such class. I'm also not saying C is the only language for which this is true. But it's definitely not generally true for interpreted languages. Also, C is pretty much the language everything higher-level is implemented in. So once again, at least some exposure to C can help someone conceptualize what's happening on the computer at every level.

mistercow 14y ago
Hmm, can you give an example of a typical "learning CS" level algorithm that you can't implement in, say, JavaScript?
- z92 14y ago
  B-Tree indexes in JavaScript
  - mistercow 14y ago
    Googling around, I see a number of implementations. What's wrong with them, and why do you feel this is impossible? (And hint: it's guaranteed not to be impossible since JS is Turing complete)
- killahpriest 14y ago
  Not an algorithm, but used in many. Pointers.
  - mistercow 14y ago
    Emulating pointers in JS is pretty easy; you just wrap the values in objects or arrays.
- 14y ago