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Can I take a moment to say how jealous I am that the UK's mass attack problem is largely about knives and not guns? Here in the land of more-guns-than-humans i
by paulryanrogers 1y ago
Can I take a moment to say how jealous I am that the UK's mass attack problem is largely about knives and not guns?
Here in the land of more-guns-than-humans it feels so much more bleak.
- johnisgood 1y agoYeah, but knives have a wide range of use, whereas guns do not. You cannot buy a kitchen knife because people MAY use it cause harm. It is like forbidding the use of roads because it MAY be used to <insert illegal activity here>. Uses (usage?) of roads are even more broad than uses of knives. I think it is easier to argue in favor of knives (or against the prohibition of ... of knives) than guns, for this reason alone.
- olddustytrail 1y ago> You cannot buy a kitchen knife because people MAY use it cause harm. Yes I can. I have knives I bought recently in my kitchen. How could you possibly believe that people in the UK can't buy knives? Do you realise how foolish that sounds?
- johnisgood 1y ago> Do you realise how foolish that sounds? The irony. Just as foolish as these ways are to prevent violence. These criminals might switch to forks, better get your Government get one step ahead of them. And no, you cannot buy kitchen knives if you are under a certain age, it is ought to prevent a lot of crimes, I am sure.
- olddustytrail 1y agoI see, so when you said "You cannot buy a kitchen knife" it's in the same way as if you live in the USA "You can't drive a car".
- johnisgood 1y agoNot quite, because they prohibited this purchase to prevent "knife crime".
- subscribed 1y agoWhat do you mean? I cna buy kitchen knives in IKEA or literally any supermarket or online shop. Care to explain?
- johnisgood 1y agoI think you've lost the plot. I did say "under age", in fact, I was called out for not having been specific in my initial message, to which I said that the two are not comparable because the prohibition of selling knives for people underaged happened at the time they were starting to fight "knife crime".
- subscribed 1y agoIf you were to carry sharpened pencil and stopped by police claimed it's for self defense, you might get arrested: https://www.askthe.police.uk/faq/?id=fefeb701-3a75-ed11-81ac-6045bd0e726f https://www.askthe.police.uk/faq/?id=fefeb701-3a75-ed11-81ac... No spray, no airgun, no folding mace, absolutely nothing can be used in self defense. Except for the alarm.
- johnisgood 1y agoCriminals are not known for telling the truth, however.
- giantg2 1y agoThe part that baffles me is that there is a right to self defense that the courts seem to acknowledge, that some cases find a person justified in using a weapon/tool that just happens to be at their disposal at the time of an attack, but having a similar tool/weapon for the purpose of defense is not allowable, even something as simple as spray.
- hluska 1y agoIn most countries, the default is whether the person had a lawful reason to be carrying the weapon used and that the defense is proportional to the attack. There’s nothing insane about that - there’s zero reason to arm yourself and millions of reasons not to.
- giantg2 1y ago"whether the person had a lawful reason to be carrying the weapon used" But that's the point - if the courts have found that defense is lawful, then it becomes a question of why it's possession (not even use and proportionality) would not be. Then you end up in a weird state where people can make up reasons to have a hammer or something else on them rather than have something potentially more reasonable/effective like pepper spray. Allowing some limited non-lethal tool seems reasonable if defense is actually something to support.
- 1y ago
- Anonbrit 1y agoUnder 16s in the UK can't buy kitchen knives, and that's an ok balance for me
- johnisgood 1y agoYeah, but does it really prevent knife crimes? Additionally, it is OK for you, because it might not be of interest to you, but given that the UK is doing all sorts of absurd stuff, what would happen if they did something absurd with regarding to the thing you like?
- paulryanrogers 1y ago> Yeah, but does it really prevent knife crimes? It likely reduces knife crime. Much as denying sales of lighters and flamable fluids to minors makes fires started by children less likely. (This deeply offended me as an adolescent who enjoyed burning things.) Is there a benefit to society of allowing minors to buy knives? We don't have laws to make bad things like murder completely impossible. We do it to make them less likely.
- johnisgood 1y agoOkay, but not selling knives to kids really reduces knife crime? I wonder by how much, if at all. I am having difficulties believing it does. Fires though, I can definitely believe it does prevent some arson. > Is there a benefit to society of allowing minors to buy knives? The default is "no ban". You need an argument the other way around. I think it is a silly question by itself. Is there a benefit to society of allowing people to skydive?
- DrScientist 1y agoYou can buy a kitchen knife - just not if you are under age. Not it's perfectly legal for an adult to buy one for a budding cook - all the age ban does is put a 'responsible' adult in the loop. You also can't carry one in public without reasonable cause - which in the end is decided by a judge.
- ndsipa_pomu 1y agoChefs can typically get away with carrying their knives (they get very possessive over the care of their own knives and so won't leave them in the kitchen) if they're in a knife roll and in a backpack or similar.
- DrScientist 1y agoOf course - most judges are reasonable ( unless the chef has the wrong social background or skin colour of course ).
- BirAdam 1y agoA gun can stop an attacker whether human, ursine, or large feline. A gun can be used for recreational shooting. A gun can just be an historical collectors' piece. A gun can be used in researching bullet proof vests and other equipment for a startup looking to sell to law enforcement/military. There are many reasons for gun ownership. Ultimately, the reason should be that the individual is free to do as he/she chooses so long as he/she doesn't initiate a violent interaction. The most often cited reason for banning firearms is the prevention of school shootings. For some reason, everyone is focused on the gun and not the fact that students wish to do violence at schools. What is it about the modern educational system that students wish to perpetrate violence in the schools to other students and teachers? Why isn't the mental health of the American youth at the center of this conversation?
- johnisgood 1y agoI do not disagree. It should be focusing on the fact that a student wanted to cause violence. It could have been done through a gun, a knife, a fork, and a thousand different items. In fact, a fist may suffice. Or an item that is readily available at schools. Any item. That said, guns are especially good at "harm as many as possible". Just like bombs are.
- brokenmachine 1y agoI should be free to do whatever I want with my Javelin missile as long as I don't initiate a violent interaction.
- sp0ck 1y agoYou are right. Polish Head of Police had one in his office[1]. He launch it in his office without violent interracion. [1]https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/polands-top-cop-accidentally-set-grenade-launcher-gifted-ukraine-rcna62273 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/polands-top-cop-accidenta...
- paulryanrogers 1y agoLet's fund and destigmatize mental healthcare! And also ban guns! Guns are more likely to cause accidental death or suicide than to save your life. Big cats and bears can be dealt with using sprays and other measures. A bit of sport shooting isn't worth having to train kindergartners in active shooter drills.
- bradleyy 1y agoAccording to the CDC, guns are used to prevent at least 500,000 violent acts per year in the USA. Why is "wide range of use" being used as the metric rather than "societal good"? While there are downsides, there's more to it.
- johnisgood 1y agoI was not arguing against guns though. I just tried to say that it is a bit more absurd to ban knives to prevent violence.
- paulryanrogers 1y ago> guns are used to prevent at least 500,000 violent acts per year in the USA. Doubt. More like 70K. Far fewer than incidents where guns were used to cause harm. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/debunking-the-guns-make-us-safer-myth/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/debunking-the-guns-...
- DrScientist 1y agoBack to the parental comment - it's been decided there isn't really a good reason to have most guns and so they are strictly controlled - I mean what's the legit reason for having an assault rifle? Now if the government thinks there isn't really a good reason to have a phone they can't hack ( because they are the good guys right.... and in theory need court orders etc - so there is legal oversight ) then they will see such phones in the same light and consider banning. This is at the core of the argument - and why governments ask for a special backdoor - as they accept a generally secure phone ( to stop your neighbour snooping ) is a good thing, but they are used to being able to tap phones and open letters if a judge gives them permission. Obviously the ironic thing is most phones probably already do have special backdoors - but only for the country where the makers reside - and that countries government doesn't want other governments to know or have acccess. And in the case of fridges - there is no argument there that they aren't legit reasons to own. In the case of knives - zombie knives don't really have legit use, whereas kitchen knives do.
- fifticon 1y agoI can think of a country where they should probably ban windows, given how many people fall out of them.
- ARandomerDude 1y ago“Give me liberty or give me death.” The ultimate point of gun ownership isn’t sporting or even self defense, though they are useful for both. The real reason America is armed is so that if our government ever gets too tyrannical, we can do something about it. Some people may not like that today but if you go back and read what people wrote circa 1775 and forward, this is the clear rationale.
- gishglish 1y ago> The real reason America is armed is so that if our government ever gets too tyrannical It’s been doing that for at least two decades, yet I’m still waiting for you people to get on with it.
- graemep 1y agoEven better, the US has a higher knife murder rate than the UK does. On the other hand IIRC it has a lower rate of at least some types of violent assault. One possible explanation is the healthcare system - fast treatment makes a big difference to the chances of surviving an attack (and are one reason murder rates have fallen over the years, and why developed countries have much lower murder rates). Does anything in the US system delay treatment significantly?
- miki123211 1y agoMy unpopular European opinion is that mass shootings are a cultural problem, not an "access to guns" problem. Cars (especially trucks) can help you achieve similar aims, and are much harder to restrict.
- johnisgood 1y agoYeah, you may want to check https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44665755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44665755.