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I hear you, but for most applications I don't want a lot of UI because it wastes screen space. It really depends on what I'm doing, but I feel the opposite that

I hear you, but for most applications I don't want a lot of UI because it wastes screen space. It really depends on what I'm doing, but I feel the opposite that you do - most applications I use are full of widgets, separator bars, dots, mini buttons while I just want an empty canvas for work. When I add everything, I lose 1/3 of my workplace to UI alone and I don't like it. That's one thing I miss from menu+hotkey UIs - the menu bar is all you have to worry about.

Scarblac 1y ago
I'm the opposite, screens are huge these days, there's enough space for both a decent amount UI and the work. (Not so much UI that it's distracting, of course)
queenkjuul 1y ago
I got by just fine with a 5" screen and old cluttered Android. If the manufacturers have decided I'm no longer allowed to have a phone smaller than 6.5", least the developers can do is use that space to give me controls
JohnFen 1y ago
> I just want an empty canvas for work I want more than that. I want some sort of visual guidance for what's possible to do and how to do it. A blank canvas means that I have to focus more on "how do I do this?" than actually doing it.
- thom 1y ago
  Yeah, discoverability is getting worse. It would be slightly more okay if there were one canonical menu system for an app that you could summon immediately and unambiguously. But every app is a mess of inconsistent layout and hidden gestures.
  - thewebguyd 1y ago
    > But every app is a mess of inconsistent layout and hidden gestures. This is what happens when we decide that the web is the end all be all of application delivery platforms, even for desktop (Electron). Call me old man yelling at clouds, but when native apps would use the operating system's components and APIs, they looked just like every other app or utility in the OS, behaved the same way, shared the same shortcuts, etc. You could just learn how to use the OS and that intuitively expanded into any native app written for that OS. We decided to throw all of that out the window for custom branded "experiences" and lowest common denominator cross platform UIs. Now things appear simple on the surface, but are much more difficult to use because instead of just learning your OS's conventions, you have to learn each individual application and its quirks. Letting marketing people dictate app design was one of the biggest mistakes this industry has made.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    Things are slightly better on macOS because it still has that mandatory main menu in every app. Which app developers can still ignore, but then it looks like a sore to the user, so they're incentivized to fill it out. Unfortunately even there I increasingly see apps with features that aren't exposed through that menu at all.
thom 1y ago
I do get that, and I use my editor with basically no ornamentation, but that’s because I have a key combination for everything so it’s quick and discoverable. I’d accept voice commands that worked quickly and reliably maybe? Or fine, give me a burger menu but let me configure it (it used to be common with iOS apps to let you configure the toolbar, but not so much these days).
makeitdouble 1y ago
> It really depends on what I'm doing To me that's the part we're really missing on mobile. There's times a lot of controls are needed and other where they need to disappear. We have that in classic UIs with collapsible tool bars and optional panels, things that will stay where they're set until explicitly hidden or moved away. Having that kind of option to pin back the buttons when/as long as needed would make minimalist designs a lot more useable IMHO.
int_19h 1y ago
That's what full screen mode is for. But it should be opt-in, not the default, and definitely not something you can't even opt out of. Separately, given the size and pixel density of your typical desktop screen today, if anything I find the "100% content" apps to look kinda bare because of all the empty space. Which makes sense, given that the UI paradigm with lots of toolbars etc dates back to the days when your typical desktop monitor was 14-17". For laptops, I'm more sympathetic to the sentiment.

Scarblac 1y ago

I'm the opposite, screens are huge these days, there's enough space for both a decent amount UI and the work. (Not so much UI that it's distracting, of course)

queenkjuul 1y ago

I got by just fine with a 5" screen and old cluttered Android. If the manufacturers have decided I'm no longer allowed to have a phone smaller than 6.5", least the developers can do is use that space to give me controls

JohnFen 1y ago

> I just want an empty canvas for work I want more than that. I want some sort of visual guidance for what's possible to do and how to do it. A blank canvas means that I have to focus more on "how do I do this?" than actually doing it.

thom 1y ago
Yeah, discoverability is getting worse. It would be slightly more okay if there were one canonical menu system for an app that you could summon immediately and unambiguously. But every app is a mess of inconsistent layout and hidden gestures.
- thewebguyd 1y ago
  > But every app is a mess of inconsistent layout and hidden gestures. This is what happens when we decide that the web is the end all be all of application delivery platforms, even for desktop (Electron). Call me old man yelling at clouds, but when native apps would use the operating system's components and APIs, they looked just like every other app or utility in the OS, behaved the same way, shared the same shortcuts, etc. You could just learn how to use the OS and that intuitively expanded into any native app written for that OS. We decided to throw all of that out the window for custom branded "experiences" and lowest common denominator cross platform UIs. Now things appear simple on the surface, but are much more difficult to use because instead of just learning your OS's conventions, you have to learn each individual application and its quirks. Letting marketing people dictate app design was one of the biggest mistakes this industry has made.
- int_19h 1y ago
  Things are slightly better on macOS because it still has that mandatory main menu in every app. Which app developers can still ignore, but then it looks like a sore to the user, so they're incentivized to fill it out. Unfortunately even there I increasingly see apps with features that aren't exposed through that menu at all.

thom 1y ago

I do get that, and I use my editor with basically no ornamentation, but that’s because I have a key combination for everything so it’s quick and discoverable. I’d accept voice commands that worked quickly and reliably maybe? Or fine, give me a burger menu but let me configure it (it used to be common with iOS apps to let you configure the toolbar, but not so much these days).

makeitdouble 1y ago

> It really depends on what I'm doing To me that's the part we're really missing on mobile. There's times a lot of controls are needed and other where they need to disappear. We have that in classic UIs with collapsible tool bars and optional panels, things that will stay where they're set until explicitly hidden or moved away. Having that kind of option to pin back the buttons when/as long as needed would make minimalist designs a lot more useable IMHO.

int_19h 1y ago

That's what full screen mode is for. But it should be opt-in, not the default, and definitely not something you can't even opt out of. Separately, given the size and pixel density of your typical desktop screen today, if anything I find the "100% content" apps to look kinda bare because of all the empty space. Which makes sense, given that the UI paradigm with lots of toolbars etc dates back to the days when your typical desktop monitor was 14-17". For laptops, I'm more sympathetic to the sentiment.