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> Only one is still actively happening, and it's the one that's killed 20-60x as many civilians, depending on whose estimates you follow. Firstly, I hope we ca

• ceejayoz 1y ago
  > Firstly, I hope we can agree that estimates by the designated terrorist (and Iranian proxy militia) government of Gaza, Hamas, cannot be relied on. No, we can't. They've historically been pretty accurate. Independent studies come up with similar numbers (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-02009-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-02009-8 ; https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... ; https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...) and a look at the debris left makes it clear many people are dying. Israel disputes the proportion of civilians to some extent, but not that tens of thousands are dead. Last year: https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-deat... "Earlier this month, Israel's government offered its first estimate of the operation's death toll, saying its troops have killed 14,000 terrorists and 16,000 civilians." That's 10x what Hamas killed on Oct 7, and that's a year old estimate from an involved source with motivations to keep that number low. > Secondly, are you aware that 2 million German citizens were killed in WW2, versus only 70,000 UK citizens? In both cases, the counts indicate technological / logistical / war outcome differences. They don't automatically infer morality of those deaths, and comparing the era of saturation bombing to that of precision weaponry is pretty desperate of you.
• cbeach 1y ago
  > In both cases, the counts indicate technological / logistical / war outcome differences. They don't automatically infer morality of those deaths, and comparing the era of saturation bombing to that of precision weaponry is pretty desperate of you. It certainly indicates war outcome in both cases (Germany and Gaza). Both these antagonists started wars which they then lost. One major logistical difference is the propensity of Hamas to use its citizens as human shields. It's on record calling on its citizens to "bare their chests" against Israel, as it is wise to the fact that the World is watching, and there are plenty of Westerners on the Left who would be useful idiots to the Hamas agenda (which is the annihilation of Israel, as stated in the Hamas Charter).
  • ceejayoz 1y ago
    > One major logistical difference is the propensity of Hamas to use its citizens as human shields. The IDF HQ is across the street from a shopping mall; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya. (Iran targeted this area, which resulted in civilian casualties. https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/06/13/12israel-iran-reporter-updates-F090ZA3HRV5/12israel-iran-reporter-updates-F090ZA3HRV5-superJumbo.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2025/06/13/12israel-iran-rep... / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marganit_Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marganit_Tower) > It certainly indicates war outcome in both cases (Germany and Gaza). Both these antagonists started wars which they then lost. Hamas and the Nazis (and the Iranian regime) suck. Indiscriminately killing civilians also sucks. It sucks even more in the era of modern precision weaponry. This really isn't as complicated a position as you seem to think.