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Bitwig works on Linux, but the problem I had was that my pro-audio soundcard [1] didn’t have supported drivers and I couldn’t get the open source drivers to wor

by louthy 1y ago

Bitwig works on Linux, but the problem I had was that my pro-audio soundcard [1] didn’t have supported drivers and I couldn’t get the open source drivers to work. I tried switching to a Dante based solution: none of the Dante based apps worked, so I tried AES67 (open source Dante), still no joy — I just could not get my Dante/AES67 AD/DA converters (which attach to everything in my studio) to be ‘seen’ on Linux. So after weeks trying to get a high-channel count I/O solution working, I gave in, I found the best thing to do was to just get a M4 Mac Mini for my audio/studio work. And leave Linux for everything else. I was setup within an hour on macOS. There’s unfortunately still too much resistance and it can cost $1000s trying to get to a working solution or ultimately in my case: a non-working solution. It cost me about $6000 trying various options — not all wasted, but still, not cheap to find out that nothing works. [1] https://rme-audio.de/hdspe-madi-fx.html https://rme-audio.de/hdspe-madi-fx.html

glimshe 1y ago
"It works BUT" summarizes my experience with running my top applications on Linux, unfortunately :(
- dotancohen 1y ago
  Which apps are those?
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    I was able to run Ableton on Linux once, but it was finnicky and didn't give me the confidence if I ever had to do a performance live with it. Unfortunately there are fields that couldn't care less about software freedom and ownership and Microsoft abuse this for profit.
    - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
      I'm an old guy who has run Linux off and on from the very beginning. Every so often I attempt to replace my windows laptop with Linux, and it always turns into days of dinking around with configuration hacks and installing this and that and the other thing trying to get all my software to work. There always some roadblock that prevents migrating completely. Eventually I always end up going back to Windows. I wish it weren't so.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        As a young guy that hasn't installed Windows in 6 years, I do hope you hold out faith!
        amanaplanacanal 1y ago
        I think part of the problem is I have decades invested in proprietary software in the Windows ecosystem. If I didn't have that investment it would likely be easier. Don't make my mistake! :)
        gchamonlive 1y ago
        This is a sunk cost that in a few years will have been mitigated. You already understand the value proposition for Linux, otherwise you wouldn't have attempted this transition multiple times. So I think it's a matter of getting used to it. But I also think context matters. Maybe you also need work that motivates you to use Linux or is impossible or quite inconvenient to do on Windows. In any case, using Windows is fine. I don't think the user is to blame for the shortcomings of the brand. It's like with conscious consuming products that don't harm the environment. It's important to seek those, but if you have to go out of your way it's just not gonna happen.
  - AndroidKitKat 1y ago
    For me, there's a small handful of games that keep me from using Linux on my main PC - RuneScape and League of Legends. RuneScape has some nasty bugs where the GPU isn't detected when running under Wayland, but if you run the game via Proton-thru-Steam you don't have access to all your accounts (I occasionally play on two). League of Legends just straight up doesn't work at all after they added their rootkit-as-anticheat, but it's the only way I keep in touch with some friends.
dfedbeef 1y ago
The reliable way to do this (I found) is check the kernel source tree first. The supported pro sound cards are, typically, kind of old. Because FOSS developers aren't just gifted hardware and documentation to write the drivers so they're a generation or two behind. Counterintuitively; using the latest kernel can be more stable as bug fixes are merged. RME does have a few supported cards (I use one) but they're mostly the ADAT ones. And the driver is in-tree.
- louthy 1y ago
  > The reliable way to do this (I found) is check the kernel source tree first Sure, in general that's good advice, but it becomes more complicated depending on the solution/situation... I’d bought the RME card long before I was hoping to make it work with Linux. I'd been running Windows for a long time for work reasons, so I had my dev work and my music setup on the same computer (a 64 core Threadripper machine, with 128gb of RAM, and fast NVMe drives). A few months before, I'd sold my company, so for work at least I didn't need to be on Windows any more. Then I started getting random audio dropouts! Presumably because of all the crap Microsoft keep loading onto the OS with after every update. The audio dropouts was the straw that broke the camel’s back. If a machine like that, with nothing else running on it other than my DAW, could start having audio dropouts, then you know something has gone horribly wrong with the OS. That's why I wanted to get my existing RME card working on Linux. When I wasn’t able to use it, I then assumed I’d be able to get a network based protocol running (Dante/AES67). There was plenty of discussion about it online, it seemed viable, and it's a network, Linux can do networking! Also, I kinda like the idea of network based audio, I think it's likely to be more future proof. So, I replaced one of my Ferrofish A32 Pro interfaces with a Ferrofish A32 Pro DANTE ($4300) [1]. It supports both Dante and AES67. I figure if I can’t get Dante running then the open protocol AES67 (with support in Linux-land) should work. That didn’t feel that risky. But no amount of finagling would make the interface appear via the virtual sound-card/router concept. This had already taken weeks (maybe months) to not get anywhere, so I looked for a Class Compliant sound-card (or, one that definitely had Linux drivers) that could support the number of channels I needed (96 channels in and out), it also needed to support the AD/DA interfaces interfaces I already had (so connectivity via MADI or Dante/AES67), but there just wasn't anything. The only other sound-card out there was another RME interface. So, that’s when I opted for a Class Compliant sound-card [2] for casual use on Linux ($324) and a new RME Digiface Dante sound-card ($1543) [3] that I could use with a newly purchased M4 Mac Mini ($3000). I also needed to replace another one of my Ferrofish A32 Pro interfaces with another Ferrofish A32 Pro Dante ($4300) to make the setup work. I realise now that my earlier estimate of $6000 was wildly out, it cost $13467 to leave Windows and to get an alternative pro-audio setup working. There may well have been alternative approaches and I may well have missed a possible solution that could have either worked with the original RME card (which would cost nothing) or AES67 (that would still require me to replace 3 x Ferrofish A32 Pro interfaces, so would end up about the same cost), but I felt like I'd been pretty thorough. I guess the reason I'm writing War & Peace here is that it's often not possible to know ahead of time whether any one setup might work. Drivers is one thing, but a pro-studio setup has more moving parts, and so if you don't know ahead of time whether any one setup will work, then it can be an expensive process to walk through the different options. And that's a problem that neither Windows nor Mac has. It's a real shame, because the stability of Linux should make it the best platform for pro-audio. [1] https://www.ferrofish.com/a32pro-dante-converter-multimode/ https://www.ferrofish.com/a32pro-dante-converter-multimode/ [2] https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii [3] https://rme-audio.de/digiface-dante.html https://rme-audio.de/digiface-dante.html
mystifyingpoi 1y ago
Linux audio is definitely hit and miss. Even with the most standard soundcard in existence (Scarlett) I still had problems with it. After fiddling a bit it works okay-ish, but there were definitely moments of "screw it, I'm buying a Mac".
- louthy 1y ago
  This works well for me on Linux Mint: https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii It has pro quality converters and is plug-n-play.
- bigyabai 1y ago
  The Scarlett should be USB class-compliant. I've got a Motu 2i2o DAC that I've been using on Linux for 3 years now, and before that used a Behringer U-Phoria without issues.
  - mystifyingpoi 1y ago
    It is class-compliant - but to this day, I've never figured out, how to use the multitrack out with Pulse. The widget shows all the outputs and testing individual outs works, but Reaper duplicates the sends, so the outputs overlap. Works with JACK though, but JACK is just strange. Also no control software (aside from one open-source thingy that looks awful), so any change requires reboot to Windows or VM passthrough.
curtisblaine 1y ago
The DAW is just a small part of it. You need all the plugins to work too :(
- bigyabai 1y ago
  Unless you bought Audio Units (let's be honest, you knew you were fucked), VSTs have multiple options for running on Linux: https://airwave.fxarena.net/ https://airwave.fxarena.net/ https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge
- louthy 1y ago
  Who uses plugins? ;) The reason I have a need for so much IO is that nearly all of my processing goes through external hardware (EQs, compressors, delays, reverbs, filters, phasers, chorus, summing mixer, multi-FX units like Eventide H3000 & H8000) and I have a wall of modular gear + about 20 synths and drum machines.

by louthy 1y ago

glimshe 1y ago

"It works BUT" summarizes my experience with running my top applications on Linux, unfortunately :(

dotancohen 1y ago
Which apps are those?
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  I was able to run Ableton on Linux once, but it was finnicky and didn't give me the confidence if I ever had to do a performance live with it. Unfortunately there are fields that couldn't care less about software freedom and ownership and Microsoft abuse this for profit.
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
    I'm an old guy who has run Linux off and on from the very beginning. Every so often I attempt to replace my windows laptop with Linux, and it always turns into days of dinking around with configuration hacks and installing this and that and the other thing trying to get all my software to work. There always some roadblock that prevents migrating completely. Eventually I always end up going back to Windows. I wish it weren't so.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      As a young guy that hasn't installed Windows in 6 years, I do hope you hold out faith!
      - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
        I think part of the problem is I have decades invested in proprietary software in the Windows ecosystem. If I didn't have that investment it would likely be easier. Don't make my mistake! :)
        gchamonlive 1y ago
        This is a sunk cost that in a few years will have been mitigated. You already understand the value proposition for Linux, otherwise you wouldn't have attempted this transition multiple times. So I think it's a matter of getting used to it. But I also think context matters. Maybe you also need work that motivates you to use Linux or is impossible or quite inconvenient to do on Windows. In any case, using Windows is fine. I don't think the user is to blame for the shortcomings of the brand. It's like with conscious consuming products that don't harm the environment. It's important to seek those, but if you have to go out of your way it's just not gonna happen.
- AndroidKitKat 1y ago
  For me, there's a small handful of games that keep me from using Linux on my main PC - RuneScape and League of Legends. RuneScape has some nasty bugs where the GPU isn't detected when running under Wayland, but if you run the game via Proton-thru-Steam you don't have access to all your accounts (I occasionally play on two). League of Legends just straight up doesn't work at all after they added their rootkit-as-anticheat, but it's the only way I keep in touch with some friends.

dfedbeef 1y ago

The reliable way to do this (I found) is check the kernel source tree first. The supported pro sound cards are, typically, kind of old. Because FOSS developers aren't just gifted hardware and documentation to write the drivers so they're a generation or two behind. Counterintuitively; using the latest kernel can be more stable as bug fixes are merged. RME does have a few supported cards (I use one) but they're mostly the ADAT ones. And the driver is in-tree.

louthy 1y ago
> The reliable way to do this (I found) is check the kernel source tree first Sure, in general that's good advice, but it becomes more complicated depending on the solution/situation... I’d bought the RME card long before I was hoping to make it work with Linux. I'd been running Windows for a long time for work reasons, so I had my dev work and my music setup on the same computer (a 64 core Threadripper machine, with 128gb of RAM, and fast NVMe drives). A few months before, I'd sold my company, so for work at least I didn't need to be on Windows any more. Then I started getting random audio dropouts! Presumably because of all the crap Microsoft keep loading onto the OS with after every update. The audio dropouts was the straw that broke the camel’s back. If a machine like that, with nothing else running on it other than my DAW, could start having audio dropouts, then you know something has gone horribly wrong with the OS. That's why I wanted to get my existing RME card working on Linux. When I wasn’t able to use it, I then assumed I’d be able to get a network based protocol running (Dante/AES67). There was plenty of discussion about it online, it seemed viable, and it's a network, Linux can do networking! Also, I kinda like the idea of network based audio, I think it's likely to be more future proof. So, I replaced one of my Ferrofish A32 Pro interfaces with a Ferrofish A32 Pro DANTE ($4300) [1]. It supports both Dante and AES67. I figure if I can’t get Dante running then the open protocol AES67 (with support in Linux-land) should work. That didn’t feel that risky. But no amount of finagling would make the interface appear via the virtual sound-card/router concept. This had already taken weeks (maybe months) to not get anywhere, so I looked for a Class Compliant sound-card (or, one that definitely had Linux drivers) that could support the number of channels I needed (96 channels in and out), it also needed to support the AD/DA interfaces interfaces I already had (so connectivity via MADI or Dante/AES67), but there just wasn't anything. The only other sound-card out there was another RME interface. So, that’s when I opted for a Class Compliant sound-card [2] for casual use on Linux ($324) and a new RME Digiface Dante sound-card ($1543) [3] that I could use with a newly purchased M4 Mac Mini ($3000). I also needed to replace another one of my Ferrofish A32 Pro interfaces with another Ferrofish A32 Pro Dante ($4300) to make the setup work. I realise now that my earlier estimate of $6000 was wildly out, it cost $13467 to leave Windows and to get an alternative pro-audio setup working. There may well have been alternative approaches and I may well have missed a possible solution that could have either worked with the original RME card (which would cost nothing) or AES67 (that would still require me to replace 3 x Ferrofish A32 Pro interfaces, so would end up about the same cost), but I felt like I'd been pretty thorough. I guess the reason I'm writing War & Peace here is that it's often not possible to know ahead of time whether any one setup might work. Drivers is one thing, but a pro-studio setup has more moving parts, and so if you don't know ahead of time whether any one setup will work, then it can be an expensive process to walk through the different options. And that's a problem that neither Windows nor Mac has. It's a real shame, because the stability of Linux should make it the best platform for pro-audio. [1] https://www.ferrofish.com/a32pro-dante-converter-multimode/ https://www.ferrofish.com/a32pro-dante-converter-multimode/ [2] https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii [3] https://rme-audio.de/digiface-dante.html https://rme-audio.de/digiface-dante.html

mystifyingpoi 1y ago

Linux audio is definitely hit and miss. Even with the most standard soundcard in existence (Scarlett) I still had problems with it. After fiddling a bit it works okay-ish, but there were definitely moments of "screw it, I'm buying a Mac".

louthy 1y ago
This works well for me on Linux Mint: https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii https://solidstatelogic.com/products/ssl-2-plus-mkii It has pro quality converters and is plug-n-play.
bigyabai 1y ago
The Scarlett should be USB class-compliant. I've got a Motu 2i2o DAC that I've been using on Linux for 3 years now, and before that used a Behringer U-Phoria without issues.
- mystifyingpoi 1y ago
  It is class-compliant - but to this day, I've never figured out, how to use the multitrack out with Pulse. The widget shows all the outputs and testing individual outs works, but Reaper duplicates the sends, so the outputs overlap. Works with JACK though, but JACK is just strange. Also no control software (aside from one open-source thingy that looks awful), so any change requires reboot to Windows or VM passthrough.

curtisblaine 1y ago

The DAW is just a small part of it. You need all the plugins to work too :(

bigyabai 1y ago
Unless you bought Audio Units (let's be honest, you knew you were fucked), VSTs have multiple options for running on Linux: https://airwave.fxarena.net/ https://airwave.fxarena.net/ https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge
louthy 1y ago
Who uses plugins? ;) The reason I have a need for so much IO is that nearly all of my processing goes through external hardware (EQs, compressors, delays, reverbs, filters, phasers, chorus, summing mixer, multi-FX units like Eventide H3000 & H8000) and I have a wall of modular gear + about 20 synths and drum machines.