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I'm not who you asked, but the reason I migrated to Macs years ago, and the reason I stay, is that I don't want my computer to be a maintenance hobby unto itsel

I'm not who you asked, but the reason I migrated to Macs years ago, and the reason I stay, is that I don't want my computer to be a maintenance hobby unto itself. I need to do actual work. I also enjoy the polish Apple provides in other ways -- the platform features you get if you're on a Mac, use an iPhone, have a Watch, etc, are all pretty great. Cobbling together something like that on my own under Linux probably isn't possible.

Zardoz84 1y ago
Using a sane distribution Linux just works without needing to do anything special or needing to do a "maintenance hobby".
Moomoomoo309 1y ago
Linux isn't a maintenance hobby unto itself if you don't make it one. After the initial migration struggles (which you'll get on MacOS too), if you choose a boring distro like Debian, the maintenance burden is similar to Windows. Lots of Linux users love customizing the crap out of their stuff, so it becomes one, but it isn't inherently like that if you keep your configuration somewhat close to stock on whatever distro you use. (I've also heard good things about immutable distros for that, since if something doesn't work, you can just rollback and it will work again)
- nicoburns 1y ago
  It isn't until you need something like Microsoft Office or Photoshop. At which point you're either using FOSS alternatives (and dealing with it's incompatibilities with the proprietary file formats) or dealing with a very fragile wine setup. If you don't need that kind of thing then Linux is indeed pretty good these days. But especially in a business context, a lot of people do.
  - lagniappe 1y ago
    > It isn't until you need something like Microsoft Office or Photoshop I run both of those on Linux, with no trouble. Who told you this?
    - chromiummmm 1y ago
      How do you run ms office on Linux?
    - qwerpy 1y ago
      I've been waiting for years for an acceptable way to run Onenote on Linux. The browser does not count, it fetches pages on demand and is painfully slow. There are some wrappers around the browser, those don't count either. Running a Windows VM is unacceptable. People don't have success running it through Wine so I'm not going to try. Why do I have to use Onenote? It's free. It syncs well with other computers and mobile apps. Sharing notebooks with other people works and is free. It's intuitive enough that my wife can use it. The search works, the formatting is rich enough, you can paste in pictures. I don't need the rest of Office. The online versions or Google docs are good enough. If I can get Onenote and Fusion360 working well on Linux, I would likely switch to Linux.
- 65 1y ago
  Are you seriously suggesting someone new to Linux use Debian, one of the most annoying distros to set up for desktop use? I used Linux Mint for about a year and gave up because everything was constantly breaking and the software was a direct downgrade from MacOS in terms of usability and prevalence. Oh, and new hardware usually doesn't even work on Linux. Linux is like Communism, sounds great in theory but in reality it doesn't work.
  - chromiummmm 1y ago
    What's so hard about debian to set up?
    - 65 1y ago
      Besides having to boot from an ISO and the arduous process of installing Linux in general compared to not having to do this with MacOS or Windows, hardware compatibility is by far the most annoying part of Linux desktop. Want to use a new laptop to run Linux? Well it probably will have a bunch of hardware issues you need to monkey patch. It appears a site for software engineers can get lost in the sauce with the concept of something being "easy" - but Linux absolutely will never take off if it's a pain in the ass for the average computer user to install and use.
  - poulpy123 1y ago
    > Linux is like Communism, sounds great in theory but in reality it doesn't work. Man I'm using windows and defending it's usage in this very thread but that's totally stupid
    - 65 1y ago
      Care to explain why you think this analogy is stupid?
      - poulpy123 1y ago
        because whatever you think of communism, linux is not an ideology and it works very well
- ubermonkey 1y ago
  "Similar to Windows" is not a great rec, IMO.
sdoering 1y ago
YMMV I switched from Mac to WIN a few years ago, because maintaining MB Pros became a nightmare, after having had six burned mainboards (with Macbook Pro devices each) within 3 years. I had definitely enough. Happy my former employer had to shell out the money for repairs/replacements. But each time getting back into a workable state with my backups still took north of two days. And while for my day job I still need to use Windows, for my freelance business I am using Linux for quite a while now. Without any maintenance except regular updates (like with any OS out there). There is exactly nothing I am missing in terms of tools/software (for my line of work), while I am also benefitting from better performance, longer battery life and overall a smoother user experience. Not going back anytime soon.
- creakingstairs 1y ago
  Can’t say I blame you after such an experience. To give another data point, I don’t think I’ve ever had any of my MacBooks fail. My old ones are still happily being used by my in-laws. That being said, I am eyeing up Framework for next laptop.
  - ubermonkey 1y ago
    Yeah, same here -- my Macbooks (and the Powerbooks before them) have been the most solid, reliable, and long-lived laptops of my entire life (and I'm 55). I'm still using a 10 year old one as a poor-man's-NAS-controller. And the backup system that ships with the tool is insanely solid -- while I don't trust any single backup solution alone, the one time I did have to recover from backup (we were robbed), Time Machine had my new machine in exactly the same state as my stolen one within about 2h. I'm sure with faster bus speeds and drives now, it'd be even faster.
    - sdoering 1y ago
      Yeah, as I mentioned in another comment - I really wish I could have kept that 2014 model. Hands down the best laptop I've ever used. Unfortunately when we got acquired, we had to return all secondary devices with no buyout option (they used to let us keep older machines, but corporate policy changed that). These days I'm running an older Lenovo Yoga that's actually holding up pretty well. Since I don't game and stopped doing video work, it covers my needs just fine. Swapped in a 2TB SSD and replaced the battery after about 6 years - can't complain about that longevity. When this one finally gives up, Framework is definitely on my shortlist. Also planning to grab a mini PC for NAS/home server duties in the next few months - been putting that off way too long. The repairability aspect of Framework really appeals to me after years of dealing with machines you basically have to replace entirely when something breaks. Seems like a much saner approach.
guappa 1y ago
Use a stable distribution like Debian and maintenance only happens every 4-5 years, if you don't mind staying with older software.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > if you don't mind staying with older software. The problem is: it depends a lot on the specific program whether I want the newest or stay with some older version of some program. Many GNU/Linux distributions make this hard, while Windows makes this easy.
  - guappa 1y ago
    There's backports to install specific programs. But I'm not here to convince anyone.
  - bornfreddy 1y ago
    Huh, what? With Linux you can at least dockerize apps and run multiple versions with negligible performance impact. Doing the same in Windows is a mess at best. Or did you mean that you want to pin an app to a specific version? This can be done also, trivially - not that it is a good idea in general.
    - delfinom 1y ago
      Ah yes, dockerize apps. Jump through hoops to use an app, compared to Windows where it's just some clicks. Nobody ever disputes that there are workarounds to the default packaging workflows of Linux distros. The problem is, your average user, even technical ones don't want using an OS to be a second job outside their real job.
      - guappa 1y ago
        Is this the moving the goalposts Olympic games?
- bornfreddy 1y ago
dspillett 1y ago
> I don't want my computer to be a maintenance hobby unto itself That hasn't been the case with Linux, any more than other OSs, for some time now. At least not if you chose an LTS release of a big “getting work done” oriented distro rather than something geared around the bleeding edge or customisability. There are issues with some software support, but that is almost all Windows stuff that you'll have the same problems with on Macs as Linux. There are occasional hardware issues, which is where Apple limiting choice in favour of known reliability can look attractive, but that is mostly on the bleeding edge too which isn't a concern if you are “getting work done” (I had issues with some 2.5GbE NICs a while ago and swapped them back out, retried with the same kit last month, at least on apt-release-update later, and things are working just fine). > if you're on a Mac, use an iPhone, have a Watch, etc, I can see that. Though I prefer to select my devices based on what they are best at rather than being locked to a single manufacturer's ecosystem. My watch (Garmin) and phone (Android) talk to each other just fine and integration with the desktop when I need it (mostly for planning routes & pacing plans using maps on the big screen) is web-based so works just as well with Linux as Widows or Macs.
- mattmanser 1y ago
  Scan your comment: That hasn't been the case with Linux...for some time now There are issues There are occasional hardware issue You're arguing against yourself.
  - teddyh 1y ago
    Windows has plenty of issues and hardware problems! It’s just that nobody ever blames Windows for them. It works like this: Headset does not work on Linux: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from Linux!” Headset does not work on Windows: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from these headphones!” (Re-post from 2022: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32541772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32541772>)
  - dspillett 1y ago
    Admitting that it isn't perfect is called being adult and offering a realistic assessment. I've had more issues with hardware with Windows in the past than Linux. Under the Apple system hardware issues are “solved” by simply limiting what is considered compatible. Maybe actually read the my comment, in which I mention such caveats, instead of just scanning to pluck out the few words which agree with your existing blinkered view. Your reply is like film posters paraphrasing quotes like “Terribly written, nothing good to say about it!” to “Terribly good!”…

Zardoz84 1y ago

Using a sane distribution Linux just works without needing to do anything special or needing to do a "maintenance hobby".

Moomoomoo309 1y ago

Linux isn't a maintenance hobby unto itself if you don't make it one. After the initial migration struggles (which you'll get on MacOS too), if you choose a boring distro like Debian, the maintenance burden is similar to Windows. Lots of Linux users love customizing the crap out of their stuff, so it becomes one, but it isn't inherently like that if you keep your configuration somewhat close to stock on whatever distro you use. (I've also heard good things about immutable distros for that, since if something doesn't work, you can just rollback and it will work again)

nicoburns 1y ago
It isn't until you need something like Microsoft Office or Photoshop. At which point you're either using FOSS alternatives (and dealing with it's incompatibilities with the proprietary file formats) or dealing with a very fragile wine setup. If you don't need that kind of thing then Linux is indeed pretty good these days. But especially in a business context, a lot of people do.
- lagniappe 1y ago
  > It isn't until you need something like Microsoft Office or Photoshop I run both of those on Linux, with no trouble. Who told you this?
  - chromiummmm 1y ago
    How do you run ms office on Linux?
  - qwerpy 1y ago
    I've been waiting for years for an acceptable way to run Onenote on Linux. The browser does not count, it fetches pages on demand and is painfully slow. There are some wrappers around the browser, those don't count either. Running a Windows VM is unacceptable. People don't have success running it through Wine so I'm not going to try. Why do I have to use Onenote? It's free. It syncs well with other computers and mobile apps. Sharing notebooks with other people works and is free. It's intuitive enough that my wife can use it. The search works, the formatting is rich enough, you can paste in pictures. I don't need the rest of Office. The online versions or Google docs are good enough. If I can get Onenote and Fusion360 working well on Linux, I would likely switch to Linux.
65 1y ago
Are you seriously suggesting someone new to Linux use Debian, one of the most annoying distros to set up for desktop use? I used Linux Mint for about a year and gave up because everything was constantly breaking and the software was a direct downgrade from MacOS in terms of usability and prevalence. Oh, and new hardware usually doesn't even work on Linux. Linux is like Communism, sounds great in theory but in reality it doesn't work.
- chromiummmm 1y ago
  What's so hard about debian to set up?
  - 65 1y ago
    Besides having to boot from an ISO and the arduous process of installing Linux in general compared to not having to do this with MacOS or Windows, hardware compatibility is by far the most annoying part of Linux desktop. Want to use a new laptop to run Linux? Well it probably will have a bunch of hardware issues you need to monkey patch. It appears a site for software engineers can get lost in the sauce with the concept of something being "easy" - but Linux absolutely will never take off if it's a pain in the ass for the average computer user to install and use.
- poulpy123 1y ago
  > Linux is like Communism, sounds great in theory but in reality it doesn't work. Man I'm using windows and defending it's usage in this very thread but that's totally stupid
  - 65 1y ago
    Care to explain why you think this analogy is stupid?
    - poulpy123 1y ago
      because whatever you think of communism, linux is not an ideology and it works very well
ubermonkey 1y ago
"Similar to Windows" is not a great rec, IMO.

sdoering 1y ago

YMMV I switched from Mac to WIN a few years ago, because maintaining MB Pros became a nightmare, after having had six burned mainboards (with Macbook Pro devices each) within 3 years. I had definitely enough. Happy my former employer had to shell out the money for repairs/replacements. But each time getting back into a workable state with my backups still took north of two days. And while for my day job I still need to use Windows, for my freelance business I am using Linux for quite a while now. Without any maintenance except regular updates (like with any OS out there). There is exactly nothing I am missing in terms of tools/software (for my line of work), while I am also benefitting from better performance, longer battery life and overall a smoother user experience. Not going back anytime soon.

creakingstairs 1y ago
Can’t say I blame you after such an experience. To give another data point, I don’t think I’ve ever had any of my MacBooks fail. My old ones are still happily being used by my in-laws. That being said, I am eyeing up Framework for next laptop.
- ubermonkey 1y ago
  Yeah, same here -- my Macbooks (and the Powerbooks before them) have been the most solid, reliable, and long-lived laptops of my entire life (and I'm 55). I'm still using a 10 year old one as a poor-man's-NAS-controller. And the backup system that ships with the tool is insanely solid -- while I don't trust any single backup solution alone, the one time I did have to recover from backup (we were robbed), Time Machine had my new machine in exactly the same state as my stolen one within about 2h. I'm sure with faster bus speeds and drives now, it'd be even faster.
  - sdoering 1y ago
    Yeah, as I mentioned in another comment - I really wish I could have kept that 2014 model. Hands down the best laptop I've ever used. Unfortunately when we got acquired, we had to return all secondary devices with no buyout option (they used to let us keep older machines, but corporate policy changed that). These days I'm running an older Lenovo Yoga that's actually holding up pretty well. Since I don't game and stopped doing video work, it covers my needs just fine. Swapped in a 2TB SSD and replaced the battery after about 6 years - can't complain about that longevity. When this one finally gives up, Framework is definitely on my shortlist. Also planning to grab a mini PC for NAS/home server duties in the next few months - been putting that off way too long. The repairability aspect of Framework really appeals to me after years of dealing with machines you basically have to replace entirely when something breaks. Seems like a much saner approach.

guappa 1y ago

Use a stable distribution like Debian and maintenance only happens every 4-5 years, if you don't mind staying with older software.

aleph_minus_one 1y ago
> if you don't mind staying with older software. The problem is: it depends a lot on the specific program whether I want the newest or stay with some older version of some program. Many GNU/Linux distributions make this hard, while Windows makes this easy.
- guappa 1y ago
  There's backports to install specific programs. But I'm not here to convince anyone.
- bornfreddy 1y ago
  Huh, what? With Linux you can at least dockerize apps and run multiple versions with negligible performance impact. Doing the same in Windows is a mess at best. Or did you mean that you want to pin an app to a specific version? This can be done also, trivially - not that it is a good idea in general.
  - delfinom 1y ago
    Ah yes, dockerize apps. Jump through hoops to use an app, compared to Windows where it's just some clicks. Nobody ever disputes that there are workarounds to the default packaging workflows of Linux distros. The problem is, your average user, even technical ones don't want using an OS to be a second job outside their real job.
    - guappa 1y ago
      Is this the moving the goalposts Olympic games?
bornfreddy 1y ago

dspillett 1y ago

> I don't want my computer to be a maintenance hobby unto itself That hasn't been the case with Linux, any more than other OSs, for some time now. At least not if you chose an LTS release of a big “getting work done” oriented distro rather than something geared around the bleeding edge or customisability. There are issues with some software support, but that is almost all Windows stuff that you'll have the same problems with on Macs as Linux. There are occasional hardware issues, which is where Apple limiting choice in favour of known reliability can look attractive, but that is mostly on the bleeding edge too which isn't a concern if you are “getting work done” (I had issues with some 2.5GbE NICs a while ago and swapped them back out, retried with the same kit last month, at least on apt-release-update later, and things are working just fine). > if you're on a Mac, use an iPhone, have a Watch, etc, I can see that. Though I prefer to select my devices based on what they are best at rather than being locked to a single manufacturer's ecosystem. My watch (Garmin) and phone (Android) talk to each other just fine and integration with the desktop when I need it (mostly for planning routes & pacing plans using maps on the big screen) is web-based so works just as well with Linux as Widows or Macs.

mattmanser 1y ago
Scan your comment: That hasn't been the case with Linux...for some time now There are issues There are occasional hardware issue You're arguing against yourself.
- teddyh 1y ago
  Windows has plenty of issues and hardware problems! It’s just that nobody ever blames Windows for them. It works like this: Headset does not work on Linux: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from Linux!” Headset does not work on Windows: “This is crap, I’ll tell everybody I know to stay away from these headphones!” (Re-post from 2022: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32541772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32541772>)
- dspillett 1y ago
  Admitting that it isn't perfect is called being adult and offering a realistic assessment. I've had more issues with hardware with Windows in the past than Linux. Under the Apple system hardware issues are “solved” by simply limiting what is considered compatible. Maybe actually read the my comment, in which I mention such caveats, instead of just scanning to pluck out the few words which agree with your existing blinkered view. Your reply is like film posters paraphrasing quotes like “Terribly written, nothing good to say about it!” to “Terribly good!”…