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Hello..? SEPA? IBAN-to-IBAN? iDEAL and many other integrated payment systems in Europe allowing instant C2B/B2C/B2B payments? We do not need crypto, the techno

Hello..? SEPA? IBAN-to-IBAN? iDEAL and many other integrated payment systems in Europe allowing instant C2B/B2C/B2B payments? We do not need crypto, the technology is here and implemented, and bank transfer fees are archaic rent-seeking structures. Well done Brazil, wake up America.

Cthulhu_ 1y ago
Exactly, it's a solution looking for a solved problem. The digital banking you listed out-perform crypto as well, and have heaps of checks and balances, auditing, and guarantees from central banks. All that will need to be reinvented for "crypto" shit, and they need to show some proof as to why it's better before they get the billions of buy-in required.
- evrimoztamur 1y ago
  Well, I think crypto does solve a couple important problems faced by many speculative markets and casinos: Regulation and taxation. It's any scammer, grifter, and thief's paradise!
  - jgalt212 1y ago
    Truth. I think the major reason Tether continues to exist is because the USG has that place wired.
  - dandanua 1y ago
    It's a paradise for all kinds of scum and dark people, like pedos, human traffickers, drug dealers, ransom hackers, mafias etc. And all this receives a great care from the current fascists USA government, who invested in crypto a lot, I suppose.
- cgag 1y ago
  I thought it was supposed to solve the problem of being kicked out of the banking system if you offend the wrong people?
deweller 1y ago
An important feature of (some) crypto stablecoins is that they function like cash. Cash is fungible. And cash in my wallet is not subject to being frozen like a bank account. One can argue the merits of a digital cash for society. But a crypto-based digital cash is fundamentally different from a digital bank-based payment system.
- red-iron-pine 1y ago
  then we continue to use physical cash. a $10 bill still works when the power goes out
  - debugnik 1y ago
    I did find myself without barely any cash during Spain's blackout and that made it really stressful. It made me value physical currency a lot more. Now I wish digital payments didn't require a server/ledger connection at all, but I understand that would risk double-spend attacks unless all the computation could be fully trusted, which we can't even guarantee for existing card payments.
    - nicholasbraker 1y ago
      Holding a small amount of cash is even promoted as part of a "survival package" here in The Netherlands. (Next to water, canned food etc.)
graemep 1y ago
I was just thinking that. He says the system has low transaction costs (free for individuals) and is fast (three seconds) instead of taking days. Sending money abroad is more expensive, but if you shop around for services instead of just paying what your bank charges it can be very cheap and fast. In the UK we have bank transfers that settle in a maximum of two hours (much less usually, although I do not know whether it is as fast as the Brazilian system on average) and is free for individuals. It seems to be the norm globally. Is Krugman entirely unaware of how the rest of the world works? The one things he is right about is that we do already have central bank digital currencies. Most currencies exist mostly in digital form (I cannot remember the exact number, but got GBP its well over 90%).
herbstein 1y ago
The Nordics also have instant C2C with Vipps/MobilePay. In Denmark it's $630 to a specific person per day. Send+receive $47k per year.
closewith 1y ago
> SEPA? IBAN-to-IBAN? iDEAL and many other integrated payment systems None of these are really comparable to Pix, which occupies a different place in the market (although it also covers these use cases). It absorbs almost all P2P payments as well as business payments, where cards and cash were previously dominant.
- sam_lowry_ 1y ago
  How is that different from SEPA? All my bank transfers are done via SEPA, including those that I do for my business. Frankly, I could not care less. I just type in or select an IBAN or scan the QR code with IBAN+Name+Comment+Amount+Currency
  - closewith 1y ago
    A vanishingly small number of people split bills, pay for chewing gum, etc with SEPA. Third parties including credit/debit cards and Revolut dominate (with their proprietary P2P payments) in the EU. It simply occupies a different market space and mindshare than Pix.
  - vitorgrs 1y ago
    Do you buy on amazon with SEPA? Can you do your gym automatic subscription with SEPA? Can you buy stuff on Chrome with Google Pay with SEPA? All of this is possible with Pix.
    - sam_lowry_ 1y ago
      > Do you buy on amazon with SEPA? Bancontact in my case, which is a country-specific payment system. Amazon knows my IBAN and I authorize the payments through Bancontact. > Can you do your gym automatic subscription with SEPA? Yes > Can you buy stuff on Chrome with Google Pay with SEPA? Nope, Google Pay only accepts credit cards.
      - closewith 1y ago
        Right, so SEPA Instant is a world away from Pix, which is accepted everywhere in Brazil and sometimes is the only payment methods available. These comments remind me of the infamous Dropbox comment. Pix is identical to SEPA except in all the ways that count to users, which is why it's wildly more popular.
beAbU 1y ago
In South Africa we've had free, instant, interbank payments for more than a decade now.

Cthulhu_ 1y ago

Exactly, it's a solution looking for a solved problem. The digital banking you listed out-perform crypto as well, and have heaps of checks and balances, auditing, and guarantees from central banks. All that will need to be reinvented for "crypto" shit, and they need to show some proof as to why it's better before they get the billions of buy-in required.

evrimoztamur 1y ago
Well, I think crypto does solve a couple important problems faced by many speculative markets and casinos: Regulation and taxation. It's any scammer, grifter, and thief's paradise!
- jgalt212 1y ago
  Truth. I think the major reason Tether continues to exist is because the USG has that place wired.
- dandanua 1y ago
  It's a paradise for all kinds of scum and dark people, like pedos, human traffickers, drug dealers, ransom hackers, mafias etc. And all this receives a great care from the current fascists USA government, who invested in crypto a lot, I suppose.
cgag 1y ago
I thought it was supposed to solve the problem of being kicked out of the banking system if you offend the wrong people?

deweller 1y ago

An important feature of (some) crypto stablecoins is that they function like cash. Cash is fungible. And cash in my wallet is not subject to being frozen like a bank account. One can argue the merits of a digital cash for society. But a crypto-based digital cash is fundamentally different from a digital bank-based payment system.

red-iron-pine 1y ago
then we continue to use physical cash. a $10 bill still works when the power goes out
- debugnik 1y ago
  I did find myself without barely any cash during Spain's blackout and that made it really stressful. It made me value physical currency a lot more. Now I wish digital payments didn't require a server/ledger connection at all, but I understand that would risk double-spend attacks unless all the computation could be fully trusted, which we can't even guarantee for existing card payments.
  - nicholasbraker 1y ago
    Holding a small amount of cash is even promoted as part of a "survival package" here in The Netherlands. (Next to water, canned food etc.)

graemep 1y ago

I was just thinking that. He says the system has low transaction costs (free for individuals) and is fast (three seconds) instead of taking days. Sending money abroad is more expensive, but if you shop around for services instead of just paying what your bank charges it can be very cheap and fast. In the UK we have bank transfers that settle in a maximum of two hours (much less usually, although I do not know whether it is as fast as the Brazilian system on average) and is free for individuals. It seems to be the norm globally. Is Krugman entirely unaware of how the rest of the world works? The one things he is right about is that we do already have central bank digital currencies. Most currencies exist mostly in digital form (I cannot remember the exact number, but got GBP its well over 90%).

herbstein 1y ago

The Nordics also have instant C2C with Vipps/MobilePay. In Denmark it's $630 to a specific person per day. Send+receive $47k per year.

closewith 1y ago

> SEPA? IBAN-to-IBAN? iDEAL and many other integrated payment systems None of these are really comparable to Pix, which occupies a different place in the market (although it also covers these use cases). It absorbs almost all P2P payments as well as business payments, where cards and cash were previously dominant.

sam_lowry_ 1y ago
How is that different from SEPA? All my bank transfers are done via SEPA, including those that I do for my business. Frankly, I could not care less. I just type in or select an IBAN or scan the QR code with IBAN+Name+Comment+Amount+Currency
- closewith 1y ago
  A vanishingly small number of people split bills, pay for chewing gum, etc with SEPA. Third parties including credit/debit cards and Revolut dominate (with their proprietary P2P payments) in the EU. It simply occupies a different market space and mindshare than Pix.
- vitorgrs 1y ago
  Do you buy on amazon with SEPA? Can you do your gym automatic subscription with SEPA? Can you buy stuff on Chrome with Google Pay with SEPA? All of this is possible with Pix.
  - sam_lowry_ 1y ago
    > Do you buy on amazon with SEPA? Bancontact in my case, which is a country-specific payment system. Amazon knows my IBAN and I authorize the payments through Bancontact. > Can you do your gym automatic subscription with SEPA? Yes > Can you buy stuff on Chrome with Google Pay with SEPA? Nope, Google Pay only accepts credit cards.
    - closewith 1y ago
      Right, so SEPA Instant is a world away from Pix, which is accepted everywhere in Brazil and sometimes is the only payment methods available. These comments remind me of the infamous Dropbox comment. Pix is identical to SEPA except in all the ways that count to users, which is why it's wildly more popular.

beAbU 1y ago

In South Africa we've had free, instant, interbank payments for more than a decade now.