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I’m just happier and happier with my ‘dumb’ car. It has physical buttons for the aircon. No wifi = no speakers listening to me and selling my personal data (y

I’m just happier and happier with my ‘dumb’ car. It has physical buttons for the aircon. No wifi = no speakers listening to me and selling my personal data (yep that’s a thing) I have to press a button on the key fob to open it so it can’t be stolen by relaying the signal. It’s pretty cheap to run because I hardly drive anywhere anyway. But when I do I just buy this stuff called ‘petrol’ that’s all around the place and takes like 30 seconds. I also still get to feel smug because the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning.

bdamm 1y ago
It doesn't take much driving for a new EV to balance out the environmental cost of harvesting, shipping, pumping, and burning all that petrol. As I understand it, about 20k km or 15k miles, on average.
- jonplackett 1y ago
  This is comparing BUYING a new gas car to BUYING a new electric car. I already have the gas car from 8 years ago. From what I can tell keeping this is way better than buying any new car - of course if I do buy a new one it’ll be electric. But keeping an existing car uses way less co2 than buying a new one.
  - bdamm 1y ago
    The markets for EVs and gas cars are fairly established, so your personal choice to keep fixing your car vs selling it to someone else who will fix it instead doesn't have a net change on the environment. Nor does your choice to buy a new car or a used car. The only thing that matters, really, is whether you are personally supporting the oil market or the electric market, how much, whether electric generation in your area has a good mix of green sources, and your support for political willingness to embrace policy that identifies and prices-in the side-effects on the environment, such as eliminating subsidies for oil companies. It all boils down to your willingness to put your money where your beliefs are, which for some people is very hard to do, for some people is not very hard to do, and for some people the environment just doesn't factor into their decision making at all. Tragedy of the commons, or will enough people actually care? Those who have the means and the awareness, definitely should.
    - jonplackett 1y ago
      If I sell it to someone else, they will probably drive 10X-20X more than me. My car mostly just sits there. The most environmentally friendly car is a stationary car.
      - bdamm 1y ago
        You cited fill time as a reason to keep your petrol car. Yet you claim you don't drive very much. I think we're not talking about cars any more. I think we're talking about a security blanket.
- RumourRider 1y ago
  It is still less environmental damage to keep an old vehicle on the road and not create a new one. Some cars can literally last forever (these models are well known) if they are looked after. The scrap yards are btw filling up with modern cars quite quickly because people cannot afford to repair new cars, or the cars are uneconomical to repair even after minor collisions. Whereas a lot of old cars (pre-2010) can be fixed on your driveway with easily affordable tools.
dreamcompiler 1y ago
> the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning. The environmental cost of producing an electric car happens once. But driving a car is an ongoing environmental insult. This is an apples/oranges comparison unless you integrate the driving damage over time. This analysis suggests EVs are overall a win for the environment after 5 years of ownership, assuming your electricity comes from coal. If it comes from hydro or renewable sources, it's more like one year. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-d...
- jonplackett 1y ago
  Ive driven 5000 miles since I bought the car as a panic purchase at the start of lockdown. So according to that article it’d take 13.5 years of driving an electric car to pay it back. You let me know an electric car that lasts 13.5 years and I’ll head on down to the dealership. Otherwise I will wait out the remaining 8.5 years as best I can
  - 1970-01-01 1y ago
    If you don't agree it's apples and oranges, go buy a 13 year old Leaf for ~$3000. Unless you have a narrow definition of 'lasts' it checks everything you need.
    - jonplackett 1y ago
      Unfortunately I have a narrow definition of a car that’s big enough for a family of four, and the leaf is not!
  - gilbetron 1y ago
    Depends on where you are, but I think you have the wrong stats, unless you are in a place where all your electricity is from coal (pretty rare). Otherwise, for an average US mix, you only have to go another 3k miles or so to breakeven.
humblebeekeeper 1y ago
> I also still get to feel smug because the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning. Citation very much needed. Electric cars are still cars, and therefore terrible for the environment, but they do emit significantly less pollution over their lives and require a lot less oil to operate.
- jonplackett 1y ago
  It’s not hard to estimate. The car is a sunk cost from 8 years ago. I drive about 1000 miles a year. That’s about 250kg of co2 a year. A new car uses something like 20 tonnes of co2 to make it. So that’s 80 years of driving for me. Obviously if I BUY a new car, it’ll be electric (but hopefully someone will have made a dumb electric car by then)
cluckindan 1y ago
”I have to press a button on the key fob to open it so it can’t be stolen by relaying the signal.” Having to press a button on the fob for it to transmit a code key via radio does not mean that the key cannot be captured with an SDR by someone close by. Only a monotonic code as a part of the key can prevent replay attacks, and only proper encryption can hinder the code from being totally cracked.

bdamm 1y ago

It doesn't take much driving for a new EV to balance out the environmental cost of harvesting, shipping, pumping, and burning all that petrol. As I understand it, about 20k km or 15k miles, on average.

jonplackett 1y ago
This is comparing BUYING a new gas car to BUYING a new electric car. I already have the gas car from 8 years ago. From what I can tell keeping this is way better than buying any new car - of course if I do buy a new one it’ll be electric. But keeping an existing car uses way less co2 than buying a new one.
- bdamm 1y ago
  The markets for EVs and gas cars are fairly established, so your personal choice to keep fixing your car vs selling it to someone else who will fix it instead doesn't have a net change on the environment. Nor does your choice to buy a new car or a used car. The only thing that matters, really, is whether you are personally supporting the oil market or the electric market, how much, whether electric generation in your area has a good mix of green sources, and your support for political willingness to embrace policy that identifies and prices-in the side-effects on the environment, such as eliminating subsidies for oil companies. It all boils down to your willingness to put your money where your beliefs are, which for some people is very hard to do, for some people is not very hard to do, and for some people the environment just doesn't factor into their decision making at all. Tragedy of the commons, or will enough people actually care? Those who have the means and the awareness, definitely should.
  - jonplackett 1y ago
    If I sell it to someone else, they will probably drive 10X-20X more than me. My car mostly just sits there. The most environmentally friendly car is a stationary car.
    - bdamm 1y ago
      You cited fill time as a reason to keep your petrol car. Yet you claim you don't drive very much. I think we're not talking about cars any more. I think we're talking about a security blanket.
RumourRider 1y ago
It is still less environmental damage to keep an old vehicle on the road and not create a new one. Some cars can literally last forever (these models are well known) if they are looked after. The scrap yards are btw filling up with modern cars quite quickly because people cannot afford to repair new cars, or the cars are uneconomical to repair even after minor collisions. Whereas a lot of old cars (pre-2010) can be fixed on your driveway with easily affordable tools.

dreamcompiler 1y ago

> the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning. The environmental cost of producing an electric car happens once. But driving a car is an ongoing environmental insult. This is an apples/oranges comparison unless you integrate the driving damage over time. This analysis suggests EVs are overall a win for the environment after 5 years of ownership, assuming your electricity comes from coal. If it comes from hydro or renewable sources, it's more like one year. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-d...

jonplackett 1y ago
Ive driven 5000 miles since I bought the car as a panic purchase at the start of lockdown. So according to that article it’d take 13.5 years of driving an electric car to pay it back. You let me know an electric car that lasts 13.5 years and I’ll head on down to the dealership. Otherwise I will wait out the remaining 8.5 years as best I can
- 1970-01-01 1y ago
  If you don't agree it's apples and oranges, go buy a 13 year old Leaf for ~$3000. Unless you have a narrow definition of 'lasts' it checks everything you need.
  - jonplackett 1y ago
    Unfortunately I have a narrow definition of a car that’s big enough for a family of four, and the leaf is not!
- gilbetron 1y ago
  Depends on where you are, but I think you have the wrong stats, unless you are in a place where all your electricity is from coal (pretty rare). Otherwise, for an average US mix, you only have to go another 3k miles or so to breakeven.

humblebeekeeper 1y ago

> I also still get to feel smug because the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning. Citation very much needed. Electric cars are still cars, and therefore terrible for the environment, but they do emit significantly less pollution over their lives and require a lot less oil to operate.

jonplackett 1y ago
It’s not hard to estimate. The car is a sunk cost from 8 years ago. I drive about 1000 miles a year. That’s about 250kg of co2 a year. A new car uses something like 20 tonnes of co2 to make it. So that’s 80 years of driving for me. Obviously if I BUY a new car, it’ll be electric (but hopefully someone will have made a dumb electric car by then)

cluckindan 1y ago

”I have to press a button on the key fob to open it so it can’t be stolen by relaying the signal.” Having to press a button on the fob for it to transmit a code key via radio does not mean that the key cannot be captured with an SDR by someone close by. Only a monotonic code as a part of the key can prevent replay attacks, and only proper encryption can hinder the code from being totally cracked.