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This must be the UN headquarters. Flags everywhere.

by lbrito 1y ago

ActorNightly 1y ago
For whatever reason, the Palestine/Israel conflict causes people to just stop being rational. Like, the facts are there, both parties attack each other as part of the conflict throughout history, but for whatever reason, people really want to pick sides on this one, and Im not sure why. Its not the genocide aspect - there are other genocides that are happening (Myanmar for example) that don't cause this reaction. Don't think its anti antisemitism either, as you don't see a lot of narratives that come with traditional rhetoric of that type. Whoever is pushing media out on this is must have figured something out in the format to make people this polarized.
- austin-cheney 1y ago
  Nobody has been able to explain to me how the Israel/Palestine issue is fundamentally different from the Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo issue of the 1990s. Its weird the mental gymnastics people will go through to qualify any position in either of these events.
  - aprilthird2021 1y ago
    The major difference is Israel is one of the only modern states that cannot and will not extend citizenship and property rights to the majority of people under their control who existed there when the nation was founded because it would upend the ethnic makeup of the country. They will also not allow the creation of a state for those people, forcing them to be stateless. None of that applies in Serbia / Bosnia / Kosovo, as far as I can tell. That is more like a separatist movement situation like what you see in Kurdistan, Kashmir, etc.
    - FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
      27% of Israeli citizens are not Jews, but Arabs. They have full citizenship, vote, hold office, etc. Gaza is a competely separate country/territory. They have no connection to the modern Israeli state. If anything they should be asking for Egyptian or Jordanian citizenship since the majority have kin relationships and history from there.
      - aprilthird2021 1y ago
        > 27% of Israeli citizens are not Jews, but Arabs. They have full citizenship, vote, hold office, etc. How does that have anything to do with the conflict? Could there ever be 51% of Israeli citizens who are non-Jewish Arabs? That tells you why Israel will not extend rights to the majority of subjects under it's territorial control. > Gaza is a competely separate country/territory It is not. Israel does not recognize it as such, and Israel controls all the borders, all the electricity, all the water, all the Internet and essentially all the external commerce of the region, it even controls the waters off shore of the region.
        AnimalMuppet 1y ago
        Not all the borders. Gaza has a border with Egypt (who also tightly control the border).
        aprilthird2021 1y ago
        Egypt had only one elected head of state, who was anti-Israel, and he has since died in prison overthrown by an autocrat who sides with the US and Israel and does their bidding. Also, at this moment, Israel controls that border completely, and they have vetoed hostage deals that would require relinquishing that control. But you of course didn't answer anything else I said, despite being wrong about the one thing you picked out of my response
        pms 1y ago
        > But you of course didn't answer anything else I said, despite being wrong about the one thing you picked out of my response Exactly. This only exposes the lack of accountability and the harmful stereotypes that led Nazi Germany and now lead Israel to committing a genocide.
      - austin-cheney 1y ago
        If Gaza were a separate country then why would Israel restrict and regulate access to Gaza without an international embargo? For all practical considerations Gaza looks like a territory fully controlled by Israel. That begs the further question that if Gaza is controlled by Israel why is Israel so opposed to treating these people more equitably? The reason this looks like some tribal/racial/dominance thing is because these questions and conditions apply almost equally to the West Bank. There is video evidence of multiple settler pogroms in the West Bank. All of the rest of the world sees basically the same violent conclusions. The only people making excuses for it are some Israelis the rest of the world refers to as extremists.
  - ActorNightly 1y ago
    Its very fundamentally different. Palestine is used as a proxy by Iran to essentially wage war on Israel, because or a lack of better term, they are still salty about a different religious group being on "their" land (and to be accurate, was technically taken from them, but it was because they were on the losing side of WW1) But Iran cannot engage in war directly, as they would be seen as aggressors. Israel on the other hand is forced into basically a lose/lose/lose situation. Its either suck it up and wait for Oct 7 part deux to happen, be genocided themselves if one state is implemented, or be seen as the bad guys in pushing further and further, hoping to take over enough land to make the former 2 not an issue.
    - austin-cheney 1y ago
      I call bullshit. If you use your imagination hard enough then just maybe you could explain the military action in Gaza as warfare… but how does that extend to the West Bank? There is no warfare in the West Bank, but there are Israeli settlers murdering Palestinians without consequences while stealing land in illegal settlements. > Israel is forced Again, that’s bullshit. Nobody is forcing Israel to be an asshole to their neighbors. Israel was the victim in 1967, nearly 60 years. It’s not 1967 anymore. A universal rule of life is if you don’t want people to think of you as an asshole then start by not being an asshole, not with a bunch of excuses and sad equivocations. I suspect Israel would try much harder to be less of a belligerent asshole if they were placed on a weapons embargo. Israel is often seen as the bad guy, because their actions make them the bad guy. If Israel really didn’t want Iran to use the Palestinian people as a puppet they could solve the problem by not giving the Palestinian people cause to be puppets. For example, Iran would lose all political influence around Israel if Israel annexed the Palestinian people with rights, protections, and citizenship. I really don’t think Israel wants this issue solved. I really think it’s about tribalism and conquest. That’s why I cannot see any difference between Israel/Palestine and Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo. It’s all sociopathic tribalism with lots of military aggression against civilians while claiming to be victims.
      - ActorNightly 1y ago
        Exactly what I mean about seeing things from one side. >but how does that extend to the West Bank? When your country history includes all of your surrounding neighbors going to war to try to exterminate you, and that sentiment hasn't changed, you are going to be probably very expansionist. Not that the west bank settlements are morally right and they certainly don't help the cause, but the actions are somewhat understandable. >Again, that’s bullshit. Nobody is forcing Israel to be an asshole to their neighbors. Oct 7th kinda is. Nothing really significant happened much other than minor land grabs in the West Bank and standard counter terrorism stuff with occasional rockets being launched by Hamas. Oct 7th highlighted the clear and present danger that still exists, where Hamas doesn't care about fighting a war and care more about killing non-muslims, civilians and military personnel alike. > Israel is often seen as the bad guy, because their actions make them the bad guy. Because most people who consume online media tend to only hear about the bad things Israel does. Goes back to the discussion about other genocides and how those are never talked. Like I said, the media narrative on this is insanely effective to make people polarized. >Israel annexed the Palestinian people with rights, protections, and citizenship. Try to be rational about this. The last thing they want is giving potential Hamas members or radical extremists free access to the country + citizenship. Majority of Palestinians are still pro Hamas. >I really think it’s about tribalism and conquest. Again, try to be rational. Is it tribalism, or do they just want a future where citizens don't have to worry about terrorist attacks or getting rocketed anymore? Its not like Israel never tried peaceful solutions - most all of them get shot down because Palestinians want "their" land back, or at the least in control of the majority of that region ("from the river to the sea") that puts Israel at a huge disadvantage and greater risks for attacks.
- aprilthird2021 1y ago
  > there are other genocides that are happening (Myanmar for example) that don't cause this reaction Because the biggest world superpower that claims to be all about "freedom" is the sponsor of this one, not a rogue, sanctioned state somewhere
  - ActorNightly 1y ago
    Why does that matter though? Is Genocide ONLY bad when capitalism involved?
    - aprilthird2021 1y ago
      I didn't mention capitalism? I mentioned it is one of the only genocides where attempts to sanction and hold the perpetrators to account are failing on a global level. Myanmar, on the other hand, is under heavy international sanctions.

This must be the UN headquarters. Flags everywhere.

by lbrito 1y ago

This must be the UN headquarters. Flags everywhere.

For whatever reason, the Palestine/Israel conflict causes people to just stop being rational. Like, the facts are there, both parties attack each other as part of the conflict throughout history, but for whatever reason, people really want to pick sides on this one, and Im not sure why. Its not the genocide aspect - there are other genocides that are happening (Myanmar for example) that don't cause this reaction. Don't think its anti antisemitism either, as you don't see a lot of narratives that come with traditional rhetoric of that type. Whoever is pushing media out on this is must have figured something out in the format to make people this polarized.

austin-cheney 1y ago
Nobody has been able to explain to me how the Israel/Palestine issue is fundamentally different from the Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo issue of the 1990s. Its weird the mental gymnastics people will go through to qualify any position in either of these events.
- aprilthird2021 1y ago
  The major difference is Israel is one of the only modern states that cannot and will not extend citizenship and property rights to the majority of people under their control who existed there when the nation was founded because it would upend the ethnic makeup of the country. They will also not allow the creation of a state for those people, forcing them to be stateless. None of that applies in Serbia / Bosnia / Kosovo, as far as I can tell. That is more like a separatist movement situation like what you see in Kurdistan, Kashmir, etc.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
    27% of Israeli citizens are not Jews, but Arabs. They have full citizenship, vote, hold office, etc. Gaza is a competely separate country/territory. They have no connection to the modern Israeli state. If anything they should be asking for Egyptian or Jordanian citizenship since the majority have kin relationships and history from there.
    - aprilthird2021 1y ago
      > 27% of Israeli citizens are not Jews, but Arabs. They have full citizenship, vote, hold office, etc. How does that have anything to do with the conflict? Could there ever be 51% of Israeli citizens who are non-Jewish Arabs? That tells you why Israel will not extend rights to the majority of subjects under it's territorial control. > Gaza is a competely separate country/territory It is not. Israel does not recognize it as such, and Israel controls all the borders, all the electricity, all the water, all the Internet and essentially all the external commerce of the region, it even controls the waters off shore of the region.
      - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
        Not all the borders. Gaza has a border with Egypt (who also tightly control the border).
        aprilthird2021 1y ago
        Egypt had only one elected head of state, who was anti-Israel, and he has since died in prison overthrown by an autocrat who sides with the US and Israel and does their bidding. Also, at this moment, Israel controls that border completely, and they have vetoed hostage deals that would require relinquishing that control. But you of course didn't answer anything else I said, despite being wrong about the one thing you picked out of my response
        pms 1y ago
        > But you of course didn't answer anything else I said, despite being wrong about the one thing you picked out of my response Exactly. This only exposes the lack of accountability and the harmful stereotypes that led Nazi Germany and now lead Israel to committing a genocide.
    - austin-cheney 1y ago
      If Gaza were a separate country then why would Israel restrict and regulate access to Gaza without an international embargo? For all practical considerations Gaza looks like a territory fully controlled by Israel. That begs the further question that if Gaza is controlled by Israel why is Israel so opposed to treating these people more equitably? The reason this looks like some tribal/racial/dominance thing is because these questions and conditions apply almost equally to the West Bank. There is video evidence of multiple settler pogroms in the West Bank. All of the rest of the world sees basically the same violent conclusions. The only people making excuses for it are some Israelis the rest of the world refers to as extremists.
- ActorNightly 1y ago
  Its very fundamentally different. Palestine is used as a proxy by Iran to essentially wage war on Israel, because or a lack of better term, they are still salty about a different religious group being on "their" land (and to be accurate, was technically taken from them, but it was because they were on the losing side of WW1) But Iran cannot engage in war directly, as they would be seen as aggressors. Israel on the other hand is forced into basically a lose/lose/lose situation. Its either suck it up and wait for Oct 7 part deux to happen, be genocided themselves if one state is implemented, or be seen as the bad guys in pushing further and further, hoping to take over enough land to make the former 2 not an issue.
  - austin-cheney 1y ago
    I call bullshit. If you use your imagination hard enough then just maybe you could explain the military action in Gaza as warfare… but how does that extend to the West Bank? There is no warfare in the West Bank, but there are Israeli settlers murdering Palestinians without consequences while stealing land in illegal settlements. > Israel is forced Again, that’s bullshit. Nobody is forcing Israel to be an asshole to their neighbors. Israel was the victim in 1967, nearly 60 years. It’s not 1967 anymore. A universal rule of life is if you don’t want people to think of you as an asshole then start by not being an asshole, not with a bunch of excuses and sad equivocations. I suspect Israel would try much harder to be less of a belligerent asshole if they were placed on a weapons embargo. Israel is often seen as the bad guy, because their actions make them the bad guy. If Israel really didn’t want Iran to use the Palestinian people as a puppet they could solve the problem by not giving the Palestinian people cause to be puppets. For example, Iran would lose all political influence around Israel if Israel annexed the Palestinian people with rights, protections, and citizenship. I really don’t think Israel wants this issue solved. I really think it’s about tribalism and conquest. That’s why I cannot see any difference between Israel/Palestine and Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo. It’s all sociopathic tribalism with lots of military aggression against civilians while claiming to be victims.
    - ActorNightly 1y ago
      Exactly what I mean about seeing things from one side. >but how does that extend to the West Bank? When your country history includes all of your surrounding neighbors going to war to try to exterminate you, and that sentiment hasn't changed, you are going to be probably very expansionist. Not that the west bank settlements are morally right and they certainly don't help the cause, but the actions are somewhat understandable. >Again, that’s bullshit. Nobody is forcing Israel to be an asshole to their neighbors. Oct 7th kinda is. Nothing really significant happened much other than minor land grabs in the West Bank and standard counter terrorism stuff with occasional rockets being launched by Hamas. Oct 7th highlighted the clear and present danger that still exists, where Hamas doesn't care about fighting a war and care more about killing non-muslims, civilians and military personnel alike. > Israel is often seen as the bad guy, because their actions make them the bad guy. Because most people who consume online media tend to only hear about the bad things Israel does. Goes back to the discussion about other genocides and how those are never talked. Like I said, the media narrative on this is insanely effective to make people polarized. >Israel annexed the Palestinian people with rights, protections, and citizenship. Try to be rational about this. The last thing they want is giving potential Hamas members or radical extremists free access to the country + citizenship. Majority of Palestinians are still pro Hamas. >I really think it’s about tribalism and conquest. Again, try to be rational. Is it tribalism, or do they just want a future where citizens don't have to worry about terrorist attacks or getting rocketed anymore? Its not like Israel never tried peaceful solutions - most all of them get shot down because Palestinians want "their" land back, or at the least in control of the majority of that region ("from the river to the sea") that puts Israel at a huge disadvantage and greater risks for attacks.
aprilthird2021 1y ago
> there are other genocides that are happening (Myanmar for example) that don't cause this reaction Because the biggest world superpower that claims to be all about "freedom" is the sponsor of this one, not a rogue, sanctioned state somewhere
- ActorNightly 1y ago
  Why does that matter though? Is Genocide ONLY bad when capitalism involved?
  - aprilthird2021 1y ago
    I didn't mention capitalism? I mentioned it is one of the only genocides where attempts to sanction and hold the perpetrators to account are failing on a global level. Myanmar, on the other hand, is under heavy international sanctions.