4 ms·

She did not have "schizophrenia" in the first place. The the DSM criteria may have overlapped, but bonafide schizophrenia comes with gray matter changes seen o

by fny 1y ago

She did not have "schizophrenia" in the first place. The the DSM criteria may have overlapped, but bonafide schizophrenia comes with gray matter changes seen over fMRI. The biggest clue is that she was never responsive to antipsychotics.

thaumasiotes 1y ago
> but bonafide schizophrenia comes with gray matter changes seen over fMRI According to who?
- genewitch 1y ago
  https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2008.07101562 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213158216301000 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022395621005793 it wasn't hard to find these, they're like secondary cites in things like https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9706110/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9706110/
  - Kittensmittens3 1y ago
    These clearly state in the abstract that there is gray matter loss in differing stages of schizophrenia, however it is unclear if it is as a result of common medications or the disease itself. It doesn't indicate that you can scan a person without any other knowledge and diagnose them with the disease. Gray matter loss can happen for other reasons as well.
    - genewitch 1y ago
      i wonder if that has anything to do with putting someone with paranoid delusions into a loud machine that you explicitly state is going to scan their brain? maybe that's why there's no good imaging studies prior to drug intervention? further i am having a hard time coming up with medical conditions that have a single test pass/fail like this.
      - KittenInABox 1y ago
        > further i am having a hard time coming up with medical conditions that have a single test pass/fail like this. Famously, pregnancy...
      - Kittensmittens3 1y ago
        Maybe, but I don't think most psychiatric patients are in a constant psychotic state that they would take such a strong stand on this. Maybe a few Ken Kesey characters depicted in a cartoonish manner. But as the article mentions it's not a single pass/fail test they seek but any biological marker at all.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
Kittensmittens3 1y ago
A large point of the article is that the search for biological markers of the disease have turned up nothing.
- leoh 1y ago
  Unique biological markers, specific to schizophrenia. iiuc everyone with a mental health diagnosis has elevated markers for inflammation.
retrac 1y ago
What we think of as schizophrenia today is almost certainly multiple underlying disorders. Historically autism was lumped under schizophrenia and before that they were both lumped under dementia. Symptomatically similar with insufficient diagnostic precision or theory to differentiate. Many things cause psychosis. Drugs are a good example. When first discovered LSD was often characterized as causing temporary chemically-induced schizophrenia. A useful metaphor but not accurate.

by fny 1y ago

thaumasiotes 1y ago

> but bonafide schizophrenia comes with gray matter changes seen over fMRI According to who?

genewitch 1y ago
https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2008.07101562 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213158216301000 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022395621005793 it wasn't hard to find these, they're like secondary cites in things like https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9706110/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9706110/
- Kittensmittens3 1y ago
  These clearly state in the abstract that there is gray matter loss in differing stages of schizophrenia, however it is unclear if it is as a result of common medications or the disease itself. It doesn't indicate that you can scan a person without any other knowledge and diagnose them with the disease. Gray matter loss can happen for other reasons as well.
  - genewitch 1y ago
    i wonder if that has anything to do with putting someone with paranoid delusions into a loud machine that you explicitly state is going to scan their brain? maybe that's why there's no good imaging studies prior to drug intervention? further i am having a hard time coming up with medical conditions that have a single test pass/fail like this.
    - KittenInABox 1y ago
      > further i am having a hard time coming up with medical conditions that have a single test pass/fail like this. Famously, pregnancy...
    - Kittensmittens3 1y ago
      Maybe, but I don't think most psychiatric patients are in a constant psychotic state that they would take such a strong stand on this. Maybe a few Ken Kesey characters depicted in a cartoonish manner. But as the article mentions it's not a single pass/fail test they seek but any biological marker at all.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

Kittensmittens3 1y ago

A large point of the article is that the search for biological markers of the disease have turned up nothing.

leoh 1y ago
Unique biological markers, specific to schizophrenia. iiuc everyone with a mental health diagnosis has elevated markers for inflammation.

retrac 1y ago

What we think of as schizophrenia today is almost certainly multiple underlying disorders. Historically autism was lumped under schizophrenia and before that they were both lumped under dementia. Symptomatically similar with insufficient diagnostic precision or theory to differentiate. Many things cause psychosis. Drugs are a good example. When first discovered LSD was often characterized as causing temporary chemically-induced schizophrenia. A useful metaphor but not accurate.