4 ms·

I highly doubt there'll ever be research in this area, but I'm very curious about whether it'll ever be possible to induce schizophrenia for a time, similar to

I highly doubt there'll ever be research in this area, but I'm very curious about whether it'll ever be possible to induce schizophrenia for a time, similar to how psychedelics or dissociatives can induce altered mind states.

LorenDB 1y ago
We'll probably get it along with all the other artificially induced injuries: https://antifandom.com/hitchhikers/wiki/Pseudo-fractures https://antifandom.com/hitchhikers/wiki/Pseudo-fractures
lillecarl 1y ago
The redneck version: Take LSD and stimulants without sleep for days.
- lenerdenator 1y ago
  My understanding is that the Liver King, Brian Johnson, is basically doing that right now.
  - partomniscient 1y ago
    Not to be confused with "Don't Die", Bryan Johnson who wants to outlive everyone, and preferred 5-MeO-DMT. Interestingly, he uses immunosuppresants as part of his anti-aging medicine/supplement regime. https://medium.com/@x3em/from-depression-to-superhuman-bryan-johnsons-quest-for-immortality-ef3ebf018a0e https://medium.com/@x3em/from-depression-to-superhuman-bryan... https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81757532 https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81757532
- ivape 1y ago
  That’s not the redneck version, that’s the everybody version. You don’t need the LSD even, just pick a stimulant of choice, legal or not (meth, coke, adderral, vyvanse, Ritalin). Ingest it for days, you’ll be in psychosis in no time.
  - lillecarl 1y ago
    You're absolutely right, I'm quite liberal myself but I've never done more than "two days" for obvious reasons. We're evolutionary designed around earth's rotation so better not fuck too much with it. I was drunk for almost two days once and at the end I couldn't comprehend conversation!
- LoganDark 1y ago
  I actually have done this (not by choice though), and I guess I might've gotten close to something like psychosis. Maybe I'll push it further when I'm in a less stressful environment. I neglect basic needs too much as it is, hah.
  - lillecarl 1y ago
    If you want to experience another personality and/or view on things the better thing is Ketamine. Don't fuck with your sleep for some burnt out euphoria experience. Always respect your sleep, it's the only thing keeping you from cooking your brain at 30. Anecdotal but my mate's mom got Alzheimers when shes like 55, an overworked overstressed, never sleeping woman.
    - LoganDark 1y ago
      Taking ketamine sucks. I actually tried with the nasal sprays before and I literally threw the spray bottle in the garbage because of how miserable that was. I didn't even get a meaningful experience out of it, but I burned the ever living fuck out of my throat from how bitter the stuff was. I heard IM injection works far better, but it's probably gonna take a long time for me to work up the courage for that. (Also, I have DID so I experience other personalities all the time!)
      - lillecarl 1y ago
        I'm genuinely surprised, for me it's been doing medative self reflecting work for ages. I buy the shitty powder on $monerosite and systematically prepare a bunch to get into the "pre hole state" with banger ket music in the headphones and closed eyes. It brings 5d chess into my psychology or something
        LoganDark 1y ago
        I don't think the nasal route is good for me. Brain doesn't like it, body doesn't like it, it just feels extremely miserable. I think I tried it before the ketamine spray, but it would just dry out my nose and it was really painful and it just felt so awful that I couldn't manage to dose myself enough to have a good effect before I just couldn't bear to take any more. It's awful and terrible and I hate it. Which sucks, because I really feel like dissociatives would be nice. I've taken memantine orally and it was nice, although it took really long to wear off, and also after a while it made me throw up all over my expensive tech, which was very not fun. Ketamine though I haven't found an adequate way to take.
petee 1y ago
My friend in highschool did a solid week on lots of acid and mushrooms, and ended up in the hospital with a schizophrenia diagnosis - this was 20yr ago, but they said he was likely to get it eventually but he triggered something or otherwise sped up the process. So you're probably right, but on both points sadly. To this day he still sends me complex CAD drawings of nothing.
- garciasn 1y ago
  Mushrooms and LSD have high tolerance from 24-96h where higher doses will not reproduce the same effects w/o abstinence. I find it hard to believe that a week's worth of exposure was the sole cause. [s]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780128002124000790 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B97801...
  - Loughla 1y ago
    >but they said he was likely to get it eventually but he triggered something or otherwise sped up the process. OP did address that. But Lots of folks attribute things like schizophrenia to hallucinogen use, when in reality, people make questionable decisions in their late teens and early twenties; this is the time that these disorders tend to manifest. So a lot of coincidence leads to a casual relationship in popular culture.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - LoganDark 1y ago
    It's genetic predisposition to schizophrenia that enables psychedelics to activate it. Without the genetic predisposition you'd be lucky to get psychosis (or unlucky, as it were). That's why people with a family history of schizophrenia or related mental disorders are particularly encouraged to avoid psychedelics.
  - partomniscient 1y ago
    I agree, most medications will create/change tolerance to more of the same. In some respect that's the purpose of taking some medications in the first place, but it can lead to poor long term outcomes. Take enough melatonin exogenously and your endogenous production stops completely. “I took five people, and we locked ourselves in a building for three weeks, and we took 400 micrograms of LSD every four hours. That is 2400 micrograms of LSD a day.… We finally were just drinking out of the bottle.… We were very high.” From Be Here Now - Ram Dass/Richard Alpert Interestingly he was the guy involved in giving psilocybin to priests back at Harvard in the 1960's. Recent source: https://tripsitter.substack.com/p/ram-dass https://tripsitter.substack.com/p/ram-dass On the other hand, one single dose of a psychiatric medication can ruin peoples lives. They get brain shocks, sexual dysfunction or anhedonia for life. One dose of marijuana can effect similar outcomes. I know immunosuppresants are whole separate part of medicine, but its a playing with fire risk/reward where its too early to establish reasonable probabilities. But at least we can begin the cause-effect discovery process.
williamscales 1y ago
Definitely seems like the sort of thing that MKUltra would have looked at. Those folks were big into ideas like creating specific mental states in people.
- LoganDark 1y ago
  I hope one day there'll be branches of medicine for each neurotype rather than just giving up whenever a drug's effects aren't consistent in trial. there needs to be more studies into everything ever
ejstronge 1y ago
> I highly doubt there'll ever be research in this area, but I'm very curious about whether it'll ever be possible to induce schizophrenia for a time, similar to how psychedelics or dissociatives can induce altered mind states. It is not possible, by definition; here’s a portion of the DSM 5 definition of schizophrenia: “ The disturbance is not attributable to the physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or another medical condition” Hard to find a publicly accessible DSM link, but here is an excerpt https://floridabhcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Pages-2019-Psychotherapeutic-Medication-Guidelines-for-Adults_Schizophrenia_06-04-20.pdf https://floridabhcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Pages...
- jvanderbot 1y ago
  This is true, but I wonder if GP spoke naively about inducing symptoms that are similar enough that we can learn about what triggers those symptoms in otherwise healthy individuals. Kind of like how we were "lucky" to get a guy with a railroad spike through his brain to learn about how brain damage affects personality and impulsiveness..
  - LoganDark 1y ago
    oh it was definitely for selfish reasons, I just want to feel it for myself. But I do have a feeling that it would advance science as well, that'd be a cool bonus I guess.
- epsilonic 1y ago
  This attribution criteria might be subject to revision based on research like this: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2829840 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
- LoganDark 1y ago
  > It is not possible, by definition I use schizophrenia to refer to the experience, not to the diagnosis. I'm not sure what to call the experience of schizophrenia other than schizophrenia, given it's not synonymous with psychosis. (Though, granted, I would also want to try psychosis someday; even if it's a terrible experience and I never want to do it again, I want to truly know what it's like. Hopefully without permanent brain damage though. That stipulation heavily limits my options.)

LorenDB 1y ago

We'll probably get it along with all the other artificially induced injuries: https://antifandom.com/hitchhikers/wiki/Pseudo-fractures https://antifandom.com/hitchhikers/wiki/Pseudo-fractures

lillecarl 1y ago

The redneck version: Take LSD and stimulants without sleep for days.

lenerdenator 1y ago
My understanding is that the Liver King, Brian Johnson, is basically doing that right now.
- partomniscient 1y ago
  Not to be confused with "Don't Die", Bryan Johnson who wants to outlive everyone, and preferred 5-MeO-DMT. Interestingly, he uses immunosuppresants as part of his anti-aging medicine/supplement regime. https://medium.com/@x3em/from-depression-to-superhuman-bryan-johnsons-quest-for-immortality-ef3ebf018a0e https://medium.com/@x3em/from-depression-to-superhuman-bryan... https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81757532 https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81757532
ivape 1y ago
That’s not the redneck version, that’s the everybody version. You don’t need the LSD even, just pick a stimulant of choice, legal or not (meth, coke, adderral, vyvanse, Ritalin). Ingest it for days, you’ll be in psychosis in no time.
- lillecarl 1y ago
  You're absolutely right, I'm quite liberal myself but I've never done more than "two days" for obvious reasons. We're evolutionary designed around earth's rotation so better not fuck too much with it. I was drunk for almost two days once and at the end I couldn't comprehend conversation!
LoganDark 1y ago
I actually have done this (not by choice though), and I guess I might've gotten close to something like psychosis. Maybe I'll push it further when I'm in a less stressful environment. I neglect basic needs too much as it is, hah.
- lillecarl 1y ago
  If you want to experience another personality and/or view on things the better thing is Ketamine. Don't fuck with your sleep for some burnt out euphoria experience. Always respect your sleep, it's the only thing keeping you from cooking your brain at 30. Anecdotal but my mate's mom got Alzheimers when shes like 55, an overworked overstressed, never sleeping woman.
  - LoganDark 1y ago
    Taking ketamine sucks. I actually tried with the nasal sprays before and I literally threw the spray bottle in the garbage because of how miserable that was. I didn't even get a meaningful experience out of it, but I burned the ever living fuck out of my throat from how bitter the stuff was. I heard IM injection works far better, but it's probably gonna take a long time for me to work up the courage for that. (Also, I have DID so I experience other personalities all the time!)
    - lillecarl 1y ago
      I'm genuinely surprised, for me it's been doing medative self reflecting work for ages. I buy the shitty powder on $monerosite and systematically prepare a bunch to get into the "pre hole state" with banger ket music in the headphones and closed eyes. It brings 5d chess into my psychology or something
      - LoganDark 1y ago
        I don't think the nasal route is good for me. Brain doesn't like it, body doesn't like it, it just feels extremely miserable. I think I tried it before the ketamine spray, but it would just dry out my nose and it was really painful and it just felt so awful that I couldn't manage to dose myself enough to have a good effect before I just couldn't bear to take any more. It's awful and terrible and I hate it. Which sucks, because I really feel like dissociatives would be nice. I've taken memantine orally and it was nice, although it took really long to wear off, and also after a while it made me throw up all over my expensive tech, which was very not fun. Ketamine though I haven't found an adequate way to take.

petee 1y ago

My friend in highschool did a solid week on lots of acid and mushrooms, and ended up in the hospital with a schizophrenia diagnosis - this was 20yr ago, but they said he was likely to get it eventually but he triggered something or otherwise sped up the process. So you're probably right, but on both points sadly. To this day he still sends me complex CAD drawings of nothing.

garciasn 1y ago
Mushrooms and LSD have high tolerance from 24-96h where higher doses will not reproduce the same effects w/o abstinence. I find it hard to believe that a week's worth of exposure was the sole cause. [s]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780128002124000790 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B97801...
- Loughla 1y ago
  >but they said he was likely to get it eventually but he triggered something or otherwise sped up the process. OP did address that. But Lots of folks attribute things like schizophrenia to hallucinogen use, when in reality, people make questionable decisions in their late teens and early twenties; this is the time that these disorders tend to manifest. So a lot of coincidence leads to a casual relationship in popular culture.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- LoganDark 1y ago
  It's genetic predisposition to schizophrenia that enables psychedelics to activate it. Without the genetic predisposition you'd be lucky to get psychosis (or unlucky, as it were). That's why people with a family history of schizophrenia or related mental disorders are particularly encouraged to avoid psychedelics.
- partomniscient 1y ago
  I agree, most medications will create/change tolerance to more of the same. In some respect that's the purpose of taking some medications in the first place, but it can lead to poor long term outcomes. Take enough melatonin exogenously and your endogenous production stops completely. “I took five people, and we locked ourselves in a building for three weeks, and we took 400 micrograms of LSD every four hours. That is 2400 micrograms of LSD a day.… We finally were just drinking out of the bottle.… We were very high.” From Be Here Now - Ram Dass/Richard Alpert Interestingly he was the guy involved in giving psilocybin to priests back at Harvard in the 1960's. Recent source: https://tripsitter.substack.com/p/ram-dass https://tripsitter.substack.com/p/ram-dass On the other hand, one single dose of a psychiatric medication can ruin peoples lives. They get brain shocks, sexual dysfunction or anhedonia for life. One dose of marijuana can effect similar outcomes. I know immunosuppresants are whole separate part of medicine, but its a playing with fire risk/reward where its too early to establish reasonable probabilities. But at least we can begin the cause-effect discovery process.

williamscales 1y ago

Definitely seems like the sort of thing that MKUltra would have looked at. Those folks were big into ideas like creating specific mental states in people.

LoganDark 1y ago
I hope one day there'll be branches of medicine for each neurotype rather than just giving up whenever a drug's effects aren't consistent in trial. there needs to be more studies into everything ever

ejstronge 1y ago

> I highly doubt there'll ever be research in this area, but I'm very curious about whether it'll ever be possible to induce schizophrenia for a time, similar to how psychedelics or dissociatives can induce altered mind states. It is not possible, by definition; here’s a portion of the DSM 5 definition of schizophrenia: “ The disturbance is not attributable to the physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or another medical condition” Hard to find a publicly accessible DSM link, but here is an excerpt https://floridabhcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Pages-2019-Psychotherapeutic-Medication-Guidelines-for-Adults_Schizophrenia_06-04-20.pdf https://floridabhcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Pages...

jvanderbot 1y ago
This is true, but I wonder if GP spoke naively about inducing symptoms that are similar enough that we can learn about what triggers those symptoms in otherwise healthy individuals. Kind of like how we were "lucky" to get a guy with a railroad spike through his brain to learn about how brain damage affects personality and impulsiveness..
- LoganDark 1y ago
  oh it was definitely for selfish reasons, I just want to feel it for myself. But I do have a feeling that it would advance science as well, that'd be a cool bonus I guess.
epsilonic 1y ago
This attribution criteria might be subject to revision based on research like this: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2829840 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
LoganDark 1y ago
> It is not possible, by definition I use schizophrenia to refer to the experience, not to the diagnosis. I'm not sure what to call the experience of schizophrenia other than schizophrenia, given it's not synonymous with psychosis. (Though, granted, I would also want to try psychosis someday; even if it's a terrible experience and I never want to do it again, I want to truly know what it's like. Hopefully without permanent brain damage though. That stipulation heavily limits my options.)