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The worst part is that cheating indicates a strong cynicism about the course and the value of learning the material. I thought elite schools were able to recr

The worst part is that cheating indicates a strong cynicism about the course and the value of learning the material. I thought elite schools were able to recruit people with intellectual curiosity and character. Clearly the admissions formula is broken.

ebf 14y ago
The admissions formula is broken or the way the class was structured was broken?
- grandalf 14y ago
  Well, it could have been a horrible, cynicism-inspiring class, but given the overall savvy of elite students (who would likely have dropped it early if that were the case) I think chances are it's just that the students being admitted are lacking in genuine intellectual curiosity and perhaps aspects of character.
unobliged 14y ago
Universities teach in such a way as to encourage academic pursuit of knowledge, but the majority of students will be seeking field experience post-graduation. This mismatch happens regardless of whether a school is top-tier.
w1ntermute 14y ago
> Clearly the admissions formula is broken. As someone who attended an "elite" college, I can assure you that you only need 3 things to get into them: 1. A plan to follow (you can easily find great ones online these days) telling you what to do in high school (with respect to classes, extracurricular activities, volunteering, leadership, standardized tests, recommendation letters, etc.) 2. Money (i.e., live in an relatively affluent area with a good public school or attend a good private school) 3. Determination (lots of it) Your personality doesn't matter at all for anything other than the interview, which you can also pass with flying colors as long as you have basic acting skills (which can be easily learned as well). Basically just smile a lot and don't act like a psychopath at the interview, and you're good to go. As for getting into a specific college, that's a crapshoot. The admissions process is a black box, and there's no way to guarantee admission to a certain university unless your parents are big donors. But if you apply to, say, all the Ivies + Stanford + MIT, you're guaranteed to get into at least 2 or 3 if you have the 3 things I described above.
kevinburke 14y ago
The quality of teaching and of the coursework is highly variable, even at an elite institution. A lot depends on the teacher's interest in the topic, their ability to teach, and the composition of the students taking the course (whether it's a required class for graduation, or an elective class).
trhtrsh 14y ago
The admissions formula is working as intended, filling a diverse class with a mix of scholars and coddled legacies: http://www.quora.com/College-and-University-Admissions/What-is-the-Happy-Bottom-Quarter-philosophy-of-college-admissions http://www.quora.com/College-and-University-Admissions/What-...
NathanKP 14y ago
I think it is important for students to be cynical about their schools and recognize that there is a huge difference between academia and real life. Most of schooling is complete crap that you'll never use, or in the case of computer sciences especially it is outdated and/or barely practical by the time you graduate and get a job. What schooling is important for is teaching how to collaborate and how to learn. Most of the learning you'll actually use on the job is stuff you'll learn on your own or after you are hired by working with other people. In my opinion from what I read in this article these students working together to figure out a tough test and collaborating are using their brains and learning how to accomplish things. That is vastly more important than an arbitrary, contrived, academia model of learning.
patmcguire 14y ago
80% of kids at elite schools come through the same kind of feeder system of either good local public schools or private schools. In that system there's a series of successively narrower hoops you have to jump through - if there's only one junior high that teaches math beyond a certain point and not everyone can go there, those kids are going to be better prepared for the high school that teaches more advanced things, so they'll make up a disproportionate amount. Since it's really hard to on the track once you're not on it, at every level of evaluation and selection you keep selecting out of smaller and smaller sections of the initial pool. The people who come out of that system tend to be supremely competent, but in a limited way. If you take a stand in high school approaching a topic from a different angle and a teacher doesn't like it and gives you a C (the horror), when it comes time to apply for Harvard there are an essentially limitless number of competitors who didn't and who got the A. So people who naturally play it safe and cynical tend to move on, and people who don't tend to adapt or get cut.
- tomjen3 14y ago
  The Atlantic had a really interesting article about the kinds of kids who goes to an elite school (although it was Princeton) http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/the-organization-kid/302164/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/the-orga.... Fair disclaimer, the article is over a decade old.
  - patmcguire 14y ago
    It's the best description I've seen. That's how I remember everyone when I started school, but everyone got a lot more cynical after the 2008 crisis. People still do the same things, though - the attitude is that even if the ladder might not be there when you get to the top, it's still the only one around.
    - tomjen3 14y ago
      That is what happens when you don't read pgs articles (in this case http://paulgraham.com/ladder.html http://paulgraham.com/ladder.html).

ebf 14y ago

The admissions formula is broken or the way the class was structured was broken?

grandalf 14y ago
Well, it could have been a horrible, cynicism-inspiring class, but given the overall savvy of elite students (who would likely have dropped it early if that were the case) I think chances are it's just that the students being admitted are lacking in genuine intellectual curiosity and perhaps aspects of character.

unobliged 14y ago

Universities teach in such a way as to encourage academic pursuit of knowledge, but the majority of students will be seeking field experience post-graduation. This mismatch happens regardless of whether a school is top-tier.

w1ntermute 14y ago

> Clearly the admissions formula is broken. As someone who attended an "elite" college, I can assure you that you only need 3 things to get into them: 1. A plan to follow (you can easily find great ones online these days) telling you what to do in high school (with respect to classes, extracurricular activities, volunteering, leadership, standardized tests, recommendation letters, etc.) 2. Money (i.e., live in an relatively affluent area with a good public school or attend a good private school) 3. Determination (lots of it) Your personality doesn't matter at all for anything other than the interview, which you can also pass with flying colors as long as you have basic acting skills (which can be easily learned as well). Basically just smile a lot and don't act like a psychopath at the interview, and you're good to go. As for getting into a specific college, that's a crapshoot. The admissions process is a black box, and there's no way to guarantee admission to a certain university unless your parents are big donors. But if you apply to, say, all the Ivies + Stanford + MIT, you're guaranteed to get into at least 2 or 3 if you have the 3 things I described above.

kevinburke 14y ago

The quality of teaching and of the coursework is highly variable, even at an elite institution. A lot depends on the teacher's interest in the topic, their ability to teach, and the composition of the students taking the course (whether it's a required class for graduation, or an elective class).

trhtrsh 14y ago

The admissions formula is working as intended, filling a diverse class with a mix of scholars and coddled legacies: http://www.quora.com/College-and-University-Admissions/What-is-the-Happy-Bottom-Quarter-philosophy-of-college-admissions http://www.quora.com/College-and-University-Admissions/What-...

NathanKP 14y ago

I think it is important for students to be cynical about their schools and recognize that there is a huge difference between academia and real life. Most of schooling is complete crap that you'll never use, or in the case of computer sciences especially it is outdated and/or barely practical by the time you graduate and get a job. What schooling is important for is teaching how to collaborate and how to learn. Most of the learning you'll actually use on the job is stuff you'll learn on your own or after you are hired by working with other people. In my opinion from what I read in this article these students working together to figure out a tough test and collaborating are using their brains and learning how to accomplish things. That is vastly more important than an arbitrary, contrived, academia model of learning.

patmcguire 14y ago

80% of kids at elite schools come through the same kind of feeder system of either good local public schools or private schools. In that system there's a series of successively narrower hoops you have to jump through - if there's only one junior high that teaches math beyond a certain point and not everyone can go there, those kids are going to be better prepared for the high school that teaches more advanced things, so they'll make up a disproportionate amount. Since it's really hard to on the track once you're not on it, at every level of evaluation and selection you keep selecting out of smaller and smaller sections of the initial pool. The people who come out of that system tend to be supremely competent, but in a limited way. If you take a stand in high school approaching a topic from a different angle and a teacher doesn't like it and gives you a C (the horror), when it comes time to apply for Harvard there are an essentially limitless number of competitors who didn't and who got the A. So people who naturally play it safe and cynical tend to move on, and people who don't tend to adapt or get cut.

tomjen3 14y ago
The Atlantic had a really interesting article about the kinds of kids who goes to an elite school (although it was Princeton) http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/the-organization-kid/302164/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/the-orga.... Fair disclaimer, the article is over a decade old.
- patmcguire 14y ago
  It's the best description I've seen. That's how I remember everyone when I started school, but everyone got a lot more cynical after the 2008 crisis. People still do the same things, though - the attitude is that even if the ladder might not be there when you get to the top, it's still the only one around.
  - tomjen3 14y ago
    That is what happens when you don't read pgs articles (in this case http://paulgraham.com/ladder.html http://paulgraham.com/ladder.html).