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by eclecticfrank 1y ago

cbeach 1y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  > There is no context that justifies UNESCO focussing on criticism of Israel's self defence, as opposed to focussing on Hamas's attrocity that started the war (or Putin etc) Sure there is. Only one is still actively happening, and it's the one that's killed 20-60x as many civilians, depending on whose estimates you follow. > There is no context that justifies UNESCO rebranding Jewish holy places as “Palestinian World Heritage sites.” Jews existed in the region for more than a thousand years before the violent Islamic conquest and colonisation. The context there is simple; quite a few places are holy to more than one religion. Some are holy to Palestinians; some are in Palestinian territories, like the Church of the Nativity.
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      > This is what happens when your neighbours wall you off because they don't want you in their countries… Ah, so now context matters. > keep training your children to hate them As do Israeli settlers. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli-kids-singing-of-wiping-out-nations-enemies-elicits-outrage/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli... "An Israeli organization calling itself The Civil Front has sparked controversy on social media by producing a song in which children fete the “destruction” in Gaza and say “nothing will be left there” in a year’s time." > you deliberately fight using civilians as human shields "How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza": https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-g... > Is this your explanation for them calling it only one of the religion's holy places? Is that actually what happened? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_i... says things like "UNESCO listed it with no attribution to any state". https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/ https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/ is the list. Let's discuss a specific one. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/148 https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/148, for example, says "a holy city for Judaism, Christianity and Islam".
      - philipallstar 1y ago
        > An Israeli organization calling itself The Civil Front has sparked controversy on social media by producing a song in which children fete the “destruction” in Gaza and say “nothing will be left there” in a year’s time." That sounds like extreme Israelis, or the average Palestinian. If this were normal, Palestine would just be bombed to dust > "How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza": https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-g https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-g... Yes, that is bad. But that doesn't remove the other thing. Stop thinking in sides and start thinking in principles. If you hide behind civilians in a war then you get to have sympathetic journalists write pieces about the natural results of that practice, but you also clearly don't care about your civilians. > Is that actually what happened? I don't know - I'm responding to earlier in the thread, as that didn't seem to be challenged before. Here[0]'s an example of what they mean, I think. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40530396 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40530396
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        > If this were normal, Palestine would just be bombed to dust… That process is well on its way to completion. https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/destruction-homes-leaves-palestinians-unable-safely-return-rafah https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/destruction-hom... "Over 15 months of all-out war on Gaza have left 92 percent of housing units and about 70 percent of all structures destroyed or damaged." > Yes, that is bad. But that doesn't remove the other thing. Certainly. Both are bad! Both should make you angry. > I don't know… Now you do! Less outraged? More skeptical? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron It's squarely in the middle of the West Bank. The list is categorized by physical location; for similar reasons, https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/529 https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/529 is Bolivian, not Catholic. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1565 https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1565 says "a site of pilgrimage for the three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam".
        philipallstar 1y ago
        > That process is well on its way to completion. That's not bombing. Bombing is generally from the air. I mean they went house to house and tried to clear things out and airdropped warnings at much greater risk to personnel than bombing. To minimise civilian casualties. Now the reality of that is painful still, because war is painful, but their strategy clearly wasn't just to level Gaza or they'd have never done it this way. > Both should make you angry. So don't bring the other thing up when I mention the first thing. You address the first thing instead of this whataboutism. > More skeptical? The pro-Palestinian take is the most credulous one, most likely to be adopted by children and young adults. I'm not saying it's wrong for that reason, but you absolutely need to be a sceptic to even consider Israel's position at all.
  - cbeach 1y ago
    > Only one is still actively happening, and it's the one that's killed 20-60x as many civilians, depending on whose estimates you follow. Firstly, I hope we can agree that estimates by the designated terrorist (and Iranian proxy militia) government of Gaza, Hamas, cannot be relied on. Secondly, are you aware that 2 million German citizens were killed in WW2, versus only 70,000 UK citizens? By your logic, should we have chastised the UK, prevented it winning the war (which Germany started), and allowed Germany to continue to invade its neighbours and exterminate Jewish people?
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      > Firstly, I hope we can agree that estimates by the designated terrorist (and Iranian proxy militia) government of Gaza, Hamas, cannot be relied on. No, we can't. They've historically been pretty accurate. Independent studies come up with similar numbers (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-02009-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-02009-8 ; https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... ; https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...) and a look at the debris left makes it clear many people are dying. Israel disputes the proportion of civilians to some extent, but not that tens of thousands are dead. Last year: https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-deat... "Earlier this month, Israel's government offered its first estimate of the operation's death toll, saying its troops have killed 14,000 terrorists and 16,000 civilians." That's 10x what Hamas killed on Oct 7, and that's a year old estimate from an involved source with motivations to keep that number low. > Secondly, are you aware that 2 million German citizens were killed in WW2, versus only 70,000 UK citizens? In both cases, the counts indicate technological / logistical / war outcome differences. They don't automatically infer morality of those deaths, and comparing the era of saturation bombing to that of precision weaponry is pretty desperate of you.
    - cbeach 1y ago
      > In both cases, the counts indicate technological / logistical / war outcome differences. They don't automatically infer morality of those deaths, and comparing the era of saturation bombing to that of precision weaponry is pretty desperate of you. It certainly indicates war outcome in both cases (Germany and Gaza). Both these antagonists started wars which they then lost. One major logistical difference is the propensity of Hamas to use its citizens as human shields. It's on record calling on its citizens to "bare their chests" against Israel, as it is wise to the fact that the World is watching, and there are plenty of Westerners on the Left who would be useful idiots to the Hamas agenda (which is the annihilation of Israel, as stated in the Hamas Charter).
- supplied_demand 1y ago
  ==There is no context that justifies Hamas using schools as weapons hubs.== Hamas isn't a part of UNESCO, nor should they be. I don't think we should let the KKK, Proud Boys, or Gatekeepers into UNESCO either based on their domestic terror activities.
amendegree 1y ago
They’re all directly in context of themselves. And if you read the original press release are related to why the US is leaving UNESCO.

These quotes are displayed without context and hence have no or a very little value in a conversation.

cbeach 1y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 1y ago
> There is no context that justifies UNESCO focussing on criticism of Israel's self defence, as opposed to focussing on Hamas's attrocity that started the war (or Putin etc) Sure there is. Only one is still actively happening, and it's the one that's killed 20-60x as many civilians, depending on whose estimates you follow. > There is no context that justifies UNESCO rebranding Jewish holy places as “Palestinian World Heritage sites.” Jews existed in the region for more than a thousand years before the violent Islamic conquest and colonisation. The context there is simple; quite a few places are holy to more than one religion. Some are holy to Palestinians; some are in Palestinian territories, like the Church of the Nativity.
- philipallstar 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    > This is what happens when your neighbours wall you off because they don't want you in their countries… Ah, so now context matters. > keep training your children to hate them As do Israeli settlers. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli-kids-singing-of-wiping-out-nations-enemies-elicits-outrage/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli... "An Israeli organization calling itself The Civil Front has sparked controversy on social media by producing a song in which children fete the “destruction” in Gaza and say “nothing will be left there” in a year’s time." > you deliberately fight using civilians as human shields "How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza": https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-g... > Is this your explanation for them calling it only one of the religion's holy places? Is that actually what happened? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_i... says things like "UNESCO listed it with no attribution to any state". https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/ https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/ is the list. Let's discuss a specific one. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/148 https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/148, for example, says "a holy city for Judaism, Christianity and Islam".
    - philipallstar 1y ago
      > An Israeli organization calling itself The Civil Front has sparked controversy on social media by producing a song in which children fete the “destruction” in Gaza and say “nothing will be left there” in a year’s time." That sounds like extreme Israelis, or the average Palestinian. If this were normal, Palestine would just be bombed to dust > "How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza": https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-g https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-g... Yes, that is bad. But that doesn't remove the other thing. Stop thinking in sides and start thinking in principles. If you hide behind civilians in a war then you get to have sympathetic journalists write pieces about the natural results of that practice, but you also clearly don't care about your civilians. > Is that actually what happened? I don't know - I'm responding to earlier in the thread, as that didn't seem to be challenged before. Here[0]'s an example of what they mean, I think. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40530396 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40530396
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        > If this were normal, Palestine would just be bombed to dust… That process is well on its way to completion. https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/destruction-homes-leaves-palestinians-unable-safely-return-rafah https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/destruction-hom... "Over 15 months of all-out war on Gaza have left 92 percent of housing units and about 70 percent of all structures destroyed or damaged." > Yes, that is bad. But that doesn't remove the other thing. Certainly. Both are bad! Both should make you angry. > I don't know… Now you do! Less outraged? More skeptical? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron It's squarely in the middle of the West Bank. The list is categorized by physical location; for similar reasons, https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/529 https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/529 is Bolivian, not Catholic. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1565 https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1565 says "a site of pilgrimage for the three monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam".
        philipallstar 1y ago
        > That process is well on its way to completion. That's not bombing. Bombing is generally from the air. I mean they went house to house and tried to clear things out and airdropped warnings at much greater risk to personnel than bombing. To minimise civilian casualties. Now the reality of that is painful still, because war is painful, but their strategy clearly wasn't just to level Gaza or they'd have never done it this way. > Both should make you angry. So don't bring the other thing up when I mention the first thing. You address the first thing instead of this whataboutism. > More skeptical? The pro-Palestinian take is the most credulous one, most likely to be adopted by children and young adults. I'm not saying it's wrong for that reason, but you absolutely need to be a sceptic to even consider Israel's position at all.
- cbeach 1y ago
  > Only one is still actively happening, and it's the one that's killed 20-60x as many civilians, depending on whose estimates you follow. Firstly, I hope we can agree that estimates by the designated terrorist (and Iranian proxy militia) government of Gaza, Hamas, cannot be relied on. Secondly, are you aware that 2 million German citizens were killed in WW2, versus only 70,000 UK citizens? By your logic, should we have chastised the UK, prevented it winning the war (which Germany started), and allowed Germany to continue to invade its neighbours and exterminate Jewish people?
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    > Firstly, I hope we can agree that estimates by the designated terrorist (and Iranian proxy militia) government of Gaza, Hamas, cannot be relied on. No, we can't. They've historically been pretty accurate. Independent studies come up with similar numbers (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-02009-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-02009-8 ; https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... ; https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...) and a look at the debris left makes it clear many people are dying. Israel disputes the proportion of civilians to some extent, but not that tens of thousands are dead. Last year: https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html https://www.voanews.com/a/israel-publishes-new-civilian-deat... "Earlier this month, Israel's government offered its first estimate of the operation's death toll, saying its troops have killed 14,000 terrorists and 16,000 civilians." That's 10x what Hamas killed on Oct 7, and that's a year old estimate from an involved source with motivations to keep that number low. > Secondly, are you aware that 2 million German citizens were killed in WW2, versus only 70,000 UK citizens? In both cases, the counts indicate technological / logistical / war outcome differences. They don't automatically infer morality of those deaths, and comparing the era of saturation bombing to that of precision weaponry is pretty desperate of you.
  - cbeach 1y ago
    > In both cases, the counts indicate technological / logistical / war outcome differences. They don't automatically infer morality of those deaths, and comparing the era of saturation bombing to that of precision weaponry is pretty desperate of you. It certainly indicates war outcome in both cases (Germany and Gaza). Both these antagonists started wars which they then lost. One major logistical difference is the propensity of Hamas to use its citizens as human shields. It's on record calling on its citizens to "bare their chests" against Israel, as it is wise to the fact that the World is watching, and there are plenty of Westerners on the Left who would be useful idiots to the Hamas agenda (which is the annihilation of Israel, as stated in the Hamas Charter).
supplied_demand 1y ago
==There is no context that justifies Hamas using schools as weapons hubs.== Hamas isn't a part of UNESCO, nor should they be. I don't think we should let the KKK, Proud Boys, or Gatekeepers into UNESCO either based on their domestic terror activities.

amendegree 1y ago

They’re all directly in context of themselves. And if you read the original press release are related to why the US is leaving UNESCO.