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.so .o .a .pc holy shit, what a mess Why things that are solved in other programming ecosystems are impossible in c cpp world, like sane building system

sparkie 1y ago
Because those other ecosystems assume that someone has already done the work on the base system and libraries that they don't have to worry about them, and can focus purely on their own little islands.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  More like, in other ecosystems, especially the compiled languages that weren't born as part of UNIX like C and C++, the whole infrastructure also takes building and linking as part of the whole language. Note that ISO C and ISO C++ ignore the existence of compilers, linkers and build tools, as per legalese there is some magic way how the code gets turned into machine code, the standards don't even consider the existence of filesystems on header files and translation units locations, they are talked about in the abstract, and can in all standard compliant way be stored in a SQL database.
adev_ 1y ago
> Why things that are solved in other programming ecosystems are impossible in c cpp world, like sane building system This is such an ignorant comment. Most other natively compiled languages have exactly the same concept behind: Object files, Shared Libraries, collection of object and some kind of configuration description of the compilation pipeline. Even high level languages like Rust has that (to some extend). The fact it is buried and hidden under 10 layers of abstraction and fancy tooling for your language does not mean it does not exist. Most languages currently do rely on the LLVM infrastructure (C++) for the linker and their object model anyway. The fact you (probably) never had to manipulate it directly just mean your higher level superficial work never brought you deep enough where it starts to be a problem.
- high_na_euv 1y ago
  >The fact you (probably) never had to manipulate it directly just mean your higher level work never brought you deep enough where it starts to be a problem. Did you just agree with me that other prog. ecosystems solved the building system challenge?
  - trinix912 1y ago
    They solved it by building on top of what C (or LLVM, to be precise) does, not by avoiding or replacing it. What should C do to solve it? Add another layer of abstraction on top of it? CMake does that and people complain about the extra complexity.
    - high_na_euv 1y ago
      Bro, cmake is garbage. Having to debug cmske scripts is pain Also how e.g dotnet builds on top of c or llvm?
  - adev_ 1y ago
    > Did you just agree with me that other prog. ecosystems solved the building system challenge? Putting the crap is a box with a user friendly handle on it to make it look 'friendlier' is never 'solving a problem'. It is barely hiding the dust under the carpet.
- uecker 1y ago
  I think people today often do not understand any more that C like many other things in the UNIX world is a tool, not a complete framework. But somehow people expect a complete convenient framework with batteries included. They see it has a deficiency that C by itself does not provide many things. I see it as one of its major strengths and this is one of the reasons why I prefer it.
  - tester756 1y ago
    Sane building system is pretty much basic thing in modern language You'd expect something as mature as C to have such a thing by default

sparkie 1y ago

Because those other ecosystems assume that someone has already done the work on the base system and libraries that they don't have to worry about them, and can focus purely on their own little islands.

pjmlp 1y ago
More like, in other ecosystems, especially the compiled languages that weren't born as part of UNIX like C and C++, the whole infrastructure also takes building and linking as part of the whole language. Note that ISO C and ISO C++ ignore the existence of compilers, linkers and build tools, as per legalese there is some magic way how the code gets turned into machine code, the standards don't even consider the existence of filesystems on header files and translation units locations, they are talked about in the abstract, and can in all standard compliant way be stored in a SQL database.

adev_ 1y ago

> Why things that are solved in other programming ecosystems are impossible in c cpp world, like sane building system This is such an ignorant comment. Most other natively compiled languages have exactly the same concept behind: Object files, Shared Libraries, collection of object and some kind of configuration description of the compilation pipeline. Even high level languages like Rust has that (to some extend). The fact it is buried and hidden under 10 layers of abstraction and fancy tooling for your language does not mean it does not exist. Most languages currently do rely on the LLVM infrastructure (C++) for the linker and their object model anyway. The fact you (probably) never had to manipulate it directly just mean your higher level superficial work never brought you deep enough where it starts to be a problem.

high_na_euv 1y ago
>The fact you (probably) never had to manipulate it directly just mean your higher level work never brought you deep enough where it starts to be a problem. Did you just agree with me that other prog. ecosystems solved the building system challenge?
- trinix912 1y ago
  They solved it by building on top of what C (or LLVM, to be precise) does, not by avoiding or replacing it. What should C do to solve it? Add another layer of abstraction on top of it? CMake does that and people complain about the extra complexity.
  - high_na_euv 1y ago
    Bro, cmake is garbage. Having to debug cmske scripts is pain Also how e.g dotnet builds on top of c or llvm?
- adev_ 1y ago
  > Did you just agree with me that other prog. ecosystems solved the building system challenge? Putting the crap is a box with a user friendly handle on it to make it look 'friendlier' is never 'solving a problem'. It is barely hiding the dust under the carpet.
uecker 1y ago
I think people today often do not understand any more that C like many other things in the UNIX world is a tool, not a complete framework. But somehow people expect a complete convenient framework with batteries included. They see it has a deficiency that C by itself does not provide many things. I see it as one of its major strengths and this is one of the reasons why I prefer it.
- tester756 1y ago
  Sane building system is pretty much basic thing in modern language You'd expect something as mature as C to have such a thing by default