2 ms·

This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. (while I'm happy to cond

by pjc50 1y ago

This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. (while I'm happy to condemn the CIA, the existence of one bad actor does not disprove the existence of other bad actors out there)

gadders 1y ago
So countries in Latin America didn't want to be "free" as well?
- pjc50 1y ago
  I don't think people wanted Pinochet and his torture and murder spree, no. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095
  - bloudibop 1y ago
    You are correct, originally people of Chile voted for Salvador Allende, A leftist politician. But that has been deemed unfit by the CIA and somehow Pinochet coup d'etat succeeded. Backing from the US helped a lot there.
  - skeezyboy 1y ago
    man youve got to be borderline retarded to believe that shit. what about Jacobo Árbenz? And Americans have the fuckin cheek to cry over Russian election interference - richest country in the world crying about how "unfair" everything is
  - gadders 1y ago
    Well that's one country in South America. What about the rest?
    - lazide 1y ago
      heard of Venezula? [https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-latin-america/ https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-l...] US support for the ‘64 Military coup in Brazil? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%...] and Bolivia. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in...] Not to mention all the drug war meddling in Columbia, etc. Or the really crazy Operation Condor [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor]. Which included Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Peru. You’d have to be willfully ignorant to not know this history. Screwing with South America has to be one of the CIA’s favorite hobbies.
      - gadders 1y ago
        You misunderstand me. I'm not saying the USA doesn't screw with Latin America. I'm saying it's also screwing with Eastern Europe via it's Colour Revolutions etc, but people seem more willing to accept that or look the other way.
        mopsi 1y ago
        I'm here and I don't see it. It sounds like a kind of American provincialism to think that everything revolves around them.
        bigbadfeline 1y ago
        > I'm here and I don't see it. You mean in Ukraine, right? It's quite normal to not see something that's been carefully designed to be invisible. > It sounds like a kind of American provincialism to think that everything revolves around them. Those words are a sure sign of serious brainwashing, similar to the Russian side. In the meantime the dead keep piling up... Quo bono?
        mopsi 1y ago
        > You mean in Ukraine, right? No. > Those words are a sure sign of serious brainwashing, Hardly. Pinning all recent human history on the CIA seems like a "to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" kind of thing. The world is far more complex than stale Usenet copypastas suggest, and the CIA is entirely outclassed by a number intelligence organizations in Eastern Europe purely it lacks an understanding of local history and culture. For the longest time, Eastern Europe has been academically taught through a Russian-centric lens. It's like learning the history of Africa through the perspective of colonial empires rather than the natives; gives barely any understanding what's going on between the different peoples of Africa. This has led to major intelligence failures, such as the failure to accurately predict the collapse of the USSR, which took CIA analysts by surprise. This, in turn, left everyone in Eastern Europe stunned: how could they be so completely oblivious to the facts on the ground?! That gave a lifelong immunity to the whole category of "almighty CIA" conspiracy theories.
coldtea 1y ago
>This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. People from there do say those things just as well. Unless one only hears the expats that say what he wants to hear and/or have adopted their host countries politics, or only taks to people who share his own lifestyle, which are usually hardly representative, there's even a name for this phenomenon in journalism, because it's often how things are told in western media. The "genuine demands for freedom for those countries" range from actual ones, to orange "revolutions", to astroturfed bullshit, to grooming the political establishment and civic society with tons of imperial money.
- simonh 1y ago
  There are plenty of well documented and unambiguous cases where the CIA has overthrown governments, directly interfered in elections and exerted covert influence but Ukraine really doesn't look like one of them. Possibly in the covert influence sense, sure, but nowhere near at the level of determining the outcome. The constitutional crisis in Ukraine in 2014 was between President Yanukovych and the Ukrainian Parliament, which is actually the sovereign institution. In a constitutional sense it wasn't even really a revolution because the sovereign institution was never overthrown. It pressured Yanukovych into resigning, backed by massive public support.
  - coldtea 1y ago
    There are no sovereign institutions in client states except in name. And anybody who tries otherwise (like spurning the IMF), gets economic, diplomatic, and even personal blackmail. Propping a dissident far right ultra-nationalist minority to build up as "mass revolt" is then easy, classic Banana Republic style.
    - simonh 1y ago
      A 'far right' government that has a jewish president, and which large numbers of LGBT+ citizens have flocked to support militarily. https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/ https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/

by pjc50 1y ago

gadders 1y ago

So countries in Latin America didn't want to be "free" as well?

pjc50 1y ago
I don't think people wanted Pinochet and his torture and murder spree, no. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095
- bloudibop 1y ago
  You are correct, originally people of Chile voted for Salvador Allende, A leftist politician. But that has been deemed unfit by the CIA and somehow Pinochet coup d'etat succeeded. Backing from the US helped a lot there.
- skeezyboy 1y ago
  man youve got to be borderline retarded to believe that shit. what about Jacobo Árbenz? And Americans have the fuckin cheek to cry over Russian election interference - richest country in the world crying about how "unfair" everything is
- gadders 1y ago
  Well that's one country in South America. What about the rest?
  - lazide 1y ago
    heard of Venezula? [https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-latin-america/ https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-l...] US support for the ‘64 Military coup in Brazil? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%...] and Bolivia. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in...] Not to mention all the drug war meddling in Columbia, etc. Or the really crazy Operation Condor [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor]. Which included Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Peru. You’d have to be willfully ignorant to not know this history. Screwing with South America has to be one of the CIA’s favorite hobbies.
    - gadders 1y ago
      You misunderstand me. I'm not saying the USA doesn't screw with Latin America. I'm saying it's also screwing with Eastern Europe via it's Colour Revolutions etc, but people seem more willing to accept that or look the other way.
      - mopsi 1y ago
        I'm here and I don't see it. It sounds like a kind of American provincialism to think that everything revolves around them.
        bigbadfeline 1y ago
        > I'm here and I don't see it. You mean in Ukraine, right? It's quite normal to not see something that's been carefully designed to be invisible. > It sounds like a kind of American provincialism to think that everything revolves around them. Those words are a sure sign of serious brainwashing, similar to the Russian side. In the meantime the dead keep piling up... Quo bono?
        mopsi 1y ago
        > You mean in Ukraine, right? No. > Those words are a sure sign of serious brainwashing, Hardly. Pinning all recent human history on the CIA seems like a "to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" kind of thing. The world is far more complex than stale Usenet copypastas suggest, and the CIA is entirely outclassed by a number intelligence organizations in Eastern Europe purely it lacks an understanding of local history and culture. For the longest time, Eastern Europe has been academically taught through a Russian-centric lens. It's like learning the history of Africa through the perspective of colonial empires rather than the natives; gives barely any understanding what's going on between the different peoples of Africa. This has led to major intelligence failures, such as the failure to accurately predict the collapse of the USSR, which took CIA analysts by surprise. This, in turn, left everyone in Eastern Europe stunned: how could they be so completely oblivious to the facts on the ground?! That gave a lifelong immunity to the whole category of "almighty CIA" conspiracy theories.

coldtea 1y ago

>This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. People from there do say those things just as well. Unless one only hears the expats that say what he wants to hear and/or have adopted their host countries politics, or only taks to people who share his own lifestyle, which are usually hardly representative, there's even a name for this phenomenon in journalism, because it's often how things are told in western media. The "genuine demands for freedom for those countries" range from actual ones, to orange "revolutions", to astroturfed bullshit, to grooming the political establishment and civic society with tons of imperial money.

simonh 1y ago
There are plenty of well documented and unambiguous cases where the CIA has overthrown governments, directly interfered in elections and exerted covert influence but Ukraine really doesn't look like one of them. Possibly in the covert influence sense, sure, but nowhere near at the level of determining the outcome. The constitutional crisis in Ukraine in 2014 was between President Yanukovych and the Ukrainian Parliament, which is actually the sovereign institution. In a constitutional sense it wasn't even really a revolution because the sovereign institution was never overthrown. It pressured Yanukovych into resigning, backed by massive public support.
- coldtea 1y ago
  There are no sovereign institutions in client states except in name. And anybody who tries otherwise (like spurning the IMF), gets economic, diplomatic, and even personal blackmail. Propping a dissident far right ultra-nationalist minority to build up as "mass revolt" is then easy, classic Banana Republic style.
  - simonh 1y ago
    A 'far right' government that has a jewish president, and which large numbers of LGBT+ citizens have flocked to support militarily. https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/ https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/