5 ms·

Foreign abuses eventually rebound on the imperial core. The establishment of more and more internment camps and the snatch squads to fill them is extremely alar

by pjc50 1y ago

Foreign abuses eventually rebound on the imperial core. The establishment of more and more internment camps and the snatch squads to fill them is extremely alarming, even if it doesn't have a "CIA" label on it but "ICE" instead. America built a machine for overthrowing democratic governments in South America because they didn't align with corporate interests, and somehow pretends that this can be contained to only operate south of the Rio Grande? Ironically I think the extremely indiscriminate nature of Trumpism might be its downfall when the security agencies finally turn on him. I wonder to what extent USAID really was a CIA front, and if they're offended that it was burned down without consulting them.

dontlaugh 1y ago
Just because Trump represents a slightly different faction of capital doesn’t mean he seriously threatens the one the CIA is the paramilitary arm of, though.
gadders 1y ago
>>America built a machine for overthrowing democratic governments in South America because they didn't align with corporate interests, and somehow pretends that this can be contained to only operate south of the Rio Grande? It's been used in Ukraine and other Eastern Europe countries as well.
- pjc50 1y ago
  This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. (while I'm happy to condemn the CIA, the existence of one bad actor does not disprove the existence of other bad actors out there)
  - gadders 1y ago
    So countries in Latin America didn't want to be "free" as well?
    - pjc50 1y ago
      I don't think people wanted Pinochet and his torture and murder spree, no. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095
      - bloudibop 1y ago
        You are correct, originally people of Chile voted for Salvador Allende, A leftist politician. But that has been deemed unfit by the CIA and somehow Pinochet coup d'etat succeeded. Backing from the US helped a lot there.
      - skeezyboy 1y ago
        man youve got to be borderline retarded to believe that shit. what about Jacobo Árbenz? And Americans have the fuckin cheek to cry over Russian election interference - richest country in the world crying about how "unfair" everything is
      - gadders 1y ago
        Well that's one country in South America. What about the rest?
        lazide 1y ago
        heard of Venezula? [https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-latin-america/ https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-l...] US support for the ‘64 Military coup in Brazil? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%...] and Bolivia. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in...] Not to mention all the drug war meddling in Columbia, etc. Or the really crazy Operation Condor [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor]. Which included Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Peru. You’d have to be willfully ignorant to not know this history. Screwing with South America has to be one of the CIA’s favorite hobbies.
  - coldtea 1y ago
    >This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. People from there do say those things just as well. Unless one only hears the expats that say what he wants to hear and/or have adopted their host countries politics, or only taks to people who share his own lifestyle, which are usually hardly representative, there's even a name for this phenomenon in journalism, because it's often how things are told in western media. The "genuine demands for freedom for those countries" range from actual ones, to orange "revolutions", to astroturfed bullshit, to grooming the political establishment and civic society with tons of imperial money.
    - simonh 1y ago
      There are plenty of well documented and unambiguous cases where the CIA has overthrown governments, directly interfered in elections and exerted covert influence but Ukraine really doesn't look like one of them. Possibly in the covert influence sense, sure, but nowhere near at the level of determining the outcome. The constitutional crisis in Ukraine in 2014 was between President Yanukovych and the Ukrainian Parliament, which is actually the sovereign institution. In a constitutional sense it wasn't even really a revolution because the sovereign institution was never overthrown. It pressured Yanukovych into resigning, backed by massive public support.
      - coldtea 1y ago
        There are no sovereign institutions in client states except in name. And anybody who tries otherwise (like spurning the IMF), gets economic, diplomatic, and even personal blackmail. Propping a dissident far right ultra-nationalist minority to build up as "mass revolt" is then easy, classic Banana Republic style.
        simonh 1y ago
        A 'far right' government that has a jewish president, and which large numbers of LGBT+ citizens have flocked to support militarily. https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/ https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/
Applejinx 1y ago
That would explain a lot about how aggressively it was nuked. Trump's operators hate the CIA with a memetic passion, to the point it's like a joke. I would be shocked if the CIA hadn't registered what was happening, isolated its would-be minder, and gone totally dark. If they hadn't been running an American imperialist plot to conquer their Cold War enemy, by now they've got no choice but to do that. And we won't be hearing about it unless they had a complete collapse of opsec. They don't have operational control of the ICE camps, though maybe they'd rather take them over than take them down.
NickC25 1y ago
> I wonder to what extent USAID really was a CIA front, This needs to be shouted from the rooftops to the crazed Trumpers who think that USAID is a waste of money. It's a jobs program for midwestern farmers to grow unprofitable legacy crops and then it morphs into an intelligence operation by giving those crops to the poorest of the poor as food donations in some resource rich but economically poor and geopolitically strategic areas, all while creating tremendous goodwill and ground-level intel. And somehow, this combo deal that puts money in poor farmers' pockets AND creates tremendous political goodwill AND serves as a fountain of continuous strategic information in vital localities is seen as a bad thing by Trump fans. I don't get it. It's probably one of the most economically beneficial operations the CIA has ever taken part of outside of trafficking cocaine.
- roenxi 1y ago
  The counterargument is pretty simple - it was directly funding propaganda. One of the truly fascinating aspects of the USAID budget cuts was a lot of journalists suddenly looking for new funding including an astonishing 9/10 Ukrainian outlets who were drawing funding from foreign sources like USAID [0]. As a matter of principle it just isn't possible to run a democracy where the government, in its official capacity, is working to shape the narrative. I can't deny that is what has been happening for decades, but the result is a toxic soup of lies and would explain a lot about why the journalist community seems to have been slowly unmooring from reality - they're attached to the money printing pipe. People shouldn't be paying for political propaganda with their taxes; particularly not in the US where it is probably leaking into domestic politics. Those NGO networks USAID was pushing money towards appear to be hostile in the main to the Trump voter base and their political objectives. [0] https://rsf.org/en/usa-trump-s-foreign-aid-freeze-throws-journalism-around-world-chaos https://rsf.org/en/usa-trump-s-foreign-aid-freeze-throws-jou... - I note they put in an erratum, although given that the US is almost certainly trying to obscure where its propaganda funding there are still a lot of questions. Their source in imi.org.ua was quoting some eyebrow-raising numbers.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    Quite. Only billionaires should own propaganda organizations. The toxic soup of lies should be fully private.
potato3732842 1y ago
>Ironically I think the extremely indiscriminate nature of Trumpism might be its downfall when the security agencies finally turn on him. I wonder to what extent USAID really was a CIA front, and if they're offended that it was burned down without consulting them. If it was a swamp/intel front I don't think it could've gotten burned down. I think the CIA laughed the whole time "this is what those idiots get for not doing their stuff under our umbrella and letting us take our cut".
CaptWillard 1y ago
Huh? Most of the point of killing USAID was because it was a CIA front. And yes, they've been operating domestically as well with the same color revolution tactics. Particularly to try to keep Trump out of office. Trying to project this onto ICE is cute.

by pjc50 1y ago

dontlaugh 1y ago

Just because Trump represents a slightly different faction of capital doesn’t mean he seriously threatens the one the CIA is the paramilitary arm of, though.

gadders 1y ago

>>America built a machine for overthrowing democratic governments in South America because they didn't align with corporate interests, and somehow pretends that this can be contained to only operate south of the Rio Grande? It's been used in Ukraine and other Eastern Europe countries as well.

pjc50 1y ago
This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. (while I'm happy to condemn the CIA, the existence of one bad actor does not disprove the existence of other bad actors out there)
- gadders 1y ago
  So countries in Latin America didn't want to be "free" as well?
  - pjc50 1y ago
    I don't think people wanted Pinochet and his torture and murder spree, no. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14584095
    - bloudibop 1y ago
      You are correct, originally people of Chile voted for Salvador Allende, A leftist politician. But that has been deemed unfit by the CIA and somehow Pinochet coup d'etat succeeded. Backing from the US helped a lot there.
    - skeezyboy 1y ago
      man youve got to be borderline retarded to believe that shit. what about Jacobo Árbenz? And Americans have the fuckin cheek to cry over Russian election interference - richest country in the world crying about how "unfair" everything is
    - gadders 1y ago
      Well that's one country in South America. What about the rest?
      - lazide 1y ago
        heard of Venezula? [https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-latin-america/ https://time.com/5512005/venezuela-us-intervention-history-l...] US support for the ‘64 Military coup in Brazil? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%...] and Bolivia. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in...] Not to mention all the drug war meddling in Columbia, etc. Or the really crazy Operation Condor [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor]. Which included Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Peru. You’d have to be willfully ignorant to not know this history. Screwing with South America has to be one of the CIA’s favorite hobbies.
- coldtea 1y ago
  >This is a slur against the genuine demands for freedom from those countries, and not one you'd say if you listen to people from there. People from there do say those things just as well. Unless one only hears the expats that say what he wants to hear and/or have adopted their host countries politics, or only taks to people who share his own lifestyle, which are usually hardly representative, there's even a name for this phenomenon in journalism, because it's often how things are told in western media. The "genuine demands for freedom for those countries" range from actual ones, to orange "revolutions", to astroturfed bullshit, to grooming the political establishment and civic society with tons of imperial money.
  - simonh 1y ago
    There are plenty of well documented and unambiguous cases where the CIA has overthrown governments, directly interfered in elections and exerted covert influence but Ukraine really doesn't look like one of them. Possibly in the covert influence sense, sure, but nowhere near at the level of determining the outcome. The constitutional crisis in Ukraine in 2014 was between President Yanukovych and the Ukrainian Parliament, which is actually the sovereign institution. In a constitutional sense it wasn't even really a revolution because the sovereign institution was never overthrown. It pressured Yanukovych into resigning, backed by massive public support.
    - coldtea 1y ago
      There are no sovereign institutions in client states except in name. And anybody who tries otherwise (like spurning the IMF), gets economic, diplomatic, and even personal blackmail. Propping a dissident far right ultra-nationalist minority to build up as "mass revolt" is then easy, classic Banana Republic style.
      - simonh 1y ago
        A 'far right' government that has a jewish president, and which large numbers of LGBT+ citizens have flocked to support militarily. https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/ https://www.lgbtmilitary.org.ua/en/

Applejinx 1y ago

That would explain a lot about how aggressively it was nuked. Trump's operators hate the CIA with a memetic passion, to the point it's like a joke. I would be shocked if the CIA hadn't registered what was happening, isolated its would-be minder, and gone totally dark. If they hadn't been running an American imperialist plot to conquer their Cold War enemy, by now they've got no choice but to do that. And we won't be hearing about it unless they had a complete collapse of opsec. They don't have operational control of the ICE camps, though maybe they'd rather take them over than take them down.

NickC25 1y ago

> I wonder to what extent USAID really was a CIA front, This needs to be shouted from the rooftops to the crazed Trumpers who think that USAID is a waste of money. It's a jobs program for midwestern farmers to grow unprofitable legacy crops and then it morphs into an intelligence operation by giving those crops to the poorest of the poor as food donations in some resource rich but economically poor and geopolitically strategic areas, all while creating tremendous goodwill and ground-level intel. And somehow, this combo deal that puts money in poor farmers' pockets AND creates tremendous political goodwill AND serves as a fountain of continuous strategic information in vital localities is seen as a bad thing by Trump fans. I don't get it. It's probably one of the most economically beneficial operations the CIA has ever taken part of outside of trafficking cocaine.

roenxi 1y ago
The counterargument is pretty simple - it was directly funding propaganda. One of the truly fascinating aspects of the USAID budget cuts was a lot of journalists suddenly looking for new funding including an astonishing 9/10 Ukrainian outlets who were drawing funding from foreign sources like USAID [0]. As a matter of principle it just isn't possible to run a democracy where the government, in its official capacity, is working to shape the narrative. I can't deny that is what has been happening for decades, but the result is a toxic soup of lies and would explain a lot about why the journalist community seems to have been slowly unmooring from reality - they're attached to the money printing pipe. People shouldn't be paying for political propaganda with their taxes; particularly not in the US where it is probably leaking into domestic politics. Those NGO networks USAID was pushing money towards appear to be hostile in the main to the Trump voter base and their political objectives. [0] https://rsf.org/en/usa-trump-s-foreign-aid-freeze-throws-journalism-around-world-chaos https://rsf.org/en/usa-trump-s-foreign-aid-freeze-throws-jou... - I note they put in an erratum, although given that the US is almost certainly trying to obscure where its propaganda funding there are still a lot of questions. Their source in imi.org.ua was quoting some eyebrow-raising numbers.
- pjc50 1y ago
  Quite. Only billionaires should own propaganda organizations. The toxic soup of lies should be fully private.

potato3732842 1y ago

>Ironically I think the extremely indiscriminate nature of Trumpism might be its downfall when the security agencies finally turn on him. I wonder to what extent USAID really was a CIA front, and if they're offended that it was burned down without consulting them. If it was a swamp/intel front I don't think it could've gotten burned down. I think the CIA laughed the whole time "this is what those idiots get for not doing their stuff under our umbrella and letting us take our cut".

CaptWillard 1y ago

Huh? Most of the point of killing USAID was because it was a CIA front. And yes, they've been operating domestically as well with the same color revolution tactics. Particularly to try to keep Trump out of office. Trying to project this onto ICE is cute.