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> Philosophically, if someone gains their wealth from people voluntarily giving them money in the free market, this is the most noble possible way to earn a for

by TFYS 1y ago

> Philosophically, if someone gains their wealth from people voluntarily giving them money in the free market, this is the most noble possible way to earn a fortune there is People can be manipulated so that they give you money "voluntarily", but I wouldn't call that noble. Probably trillions of dollars are spent trying to manipulate people in various ways to try to convince them to give their money to the wealthy. Some of the most brilliant minds of humanity are working on how to use human psychology and technology to get people to do what they want. When an individual is up against that, I wouldn't call it entirely voluntary. > The capitalist system has brought all of humanity higher than ever dreamed of by the wealthiest kings in centuries past. All of humanity? No, millions still die of hunger. That's because their needs are invisible in a capitalist system, while the wants of those with wealth get the attention of everyone.

monero-xmr 1y ago
You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil, and the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful. I would love to see a successful country that is not capitalist at its core
- TFYS 1y ago
  > You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil It is. Informing people about solutions to their problems is good, but advertising as it exists today is nothing more than manipulation in most cases. > the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist.
  - monero-xmr 1y ago
    > You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist. Yes, it absolutely has, and there is no example you can provide of a capitalist country providing a worse life than a non-capitalist country
    - TFYS 1y ago
      If people are still dying of hunger and preventable diseases in capitalist countries, then it has not lifted all of humanity. I wasn't saying some other system is doing better than capitalism, just that capitalism has not succeeded in bringing all of humanity out of absolute poverty. Anyway, just because capitalism is the best we've come up with so far doesn't mean we can't do better. Would you look at the fastest car today and say "there's no example of a faster car you can provide, therefore this is the fastest car there can ever be". No, we can do better, especially with the technology we now have.
      - monero-xmr 1y ago
        Capitalism is not a designed system, it is an emergent phenomena. Even in the most restrictive, communist societies (North Korea) the black market is the primary way the common people don’t starve. As they accumulate wealth they continue to invest in their black market enterprises. There is no alternative to letting people trade, which results in successful traders accumulating more than others. That’s it. There is no other system because it goes against human nature
        TFYS 1y ago
        Markets != capitalism. By limiting what can be owned and for what reason, we could get rid of capitalism without completely getting rid of markets. It'd be quite easy to prevent private ownership of land or large businesses without black markets for those things forming.
        monero-xmr 1y ago
        Your solution is to have the government restrict freedom at gunpoint. A solution with a long history of examples and attempts, of total failure
        TFYS 1y ago
        Capitalism relies on a government enforcing its rules just as much as any other system. How do you think someone can own businesses, buildings and large swathes of land? Because if someone tries to claim them as their own, the government will come and restrict their freedom to do so. We also quite successfully restrict ownership of people these days.
- const_cast 1y ago
  > You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil It is. It's exploitation of the human mind, like a drug. It exists to hit the right triggers to open the gates of a person's decision making. It's like a backdoor. Except, not really. Because the human mind is much easier to exploit than a computer. We can do it very obviously, maybe with nicotine. But we don't even need substances. Just some bright lights and a bar you pull is enough to get people to drain their entire savings. You can even tell them "this doesn't work, you won't win" - it doesn't actually affect the exploit, because the exploit is occurring on a physiological, survival level, and logic is at a higher level than that. It's like trying to stop an active rootkit with Windows Defender. Advertisement is gambling, but normalized. The goal is to develop an exploit to compel humans to work against their interests, to actively harm themselves in hopes of something they require. It's typically simple things like joy or love. They might appeal to the innate desire for socialization, the innate need to be recognized and respected. But, actually, you don't even need that. Even just exposing a brand image, over and over again, with no messaging creates an exploit. Now, they are primed to buy from you as opposed to competitors. Not based on logic, or even emotion - no, something much more intrinsic, much more fundamental to how neurons operate. Pattern recognition. The exploit is so effective and deep-seated that you cannot even be aware if it has occurred, nor can you undo it. Some people believe the point of advertising is to get people to buy things. No, not at all. The point of advertising is for people to buy things all on their own, and make them believe it was done on their own accord. That's the golden goose. Any idiot can hold a gun to someone's head. But true manipulation doesn't require a gun.

by TFYS 1y ago

monero-xmr 1y ago

You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil, and the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful. I would love to see a successful country that is not capitalist at its core

TFYS 1y ago
> You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil It is. Informing people about solutions to their problems is good, but advertising as it exists today is nothing more than manipulation in most cases. > the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist.
- monero-xmr 1y ago
  > You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist. Yes, it absolutely has, and there is no example you can provide of a capitalist country providing a worse life than a non-capitalist country
  - TFYS 1y ago
    If people are still dying of hunger and preventable diseases in capitalist countries, then it has not lifted all of humanity. I wasn't saying some other system is doing better than capitalism, just that capitalism has not succeeded in bringing all of humanity out of absolute poverty. Anyway, just because capitalism is the best we've come up with so far doesn't mean we can't do better. Would you look at the fastest car today and say "there's no example of a faster car you can provide, therefore this is the fastest car there can ever be". No, we can do better, especially with the technology we now have.
    - monero-xmr 1y ago
      Capitalism is not a designed system, it is an emergent phenomena. Even in the most restrictive, communist societies (North Korea) the black market is the primary way the common people don’t starve. As they accumulate wealth they continue to invest in their black market enterprises. There is no alternative to letting people trade, which results in successful traders accumulating more than others. That’s it. There is no other system because it goes against human nature
      - TFYS 1y ago
        Markets != capitalism. By limiting what can be owned and for what reason, we could get rid of capitalism without completely getting rid of markets. It'd be quite easy to prevent private ownership of land or large businesses without black markets for those things forming.
        monero-xmr 1y ago
        Your solution is to have the government restrict freedom at gunpoint. A solution with a long history of examples and attempts, of total failure
        TFYS 1y ago
        Capitalism relies on a government enforcing its rules just as much as any other system. How do you think someone can own businesses, buildings and large swathes of land? Because if someone tries to claim them as their own, the government will come and restrict their freedom to do so. We also quite successfully restrict ownership of people these days.
const_cast 1y ago
> You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil It is. It's exploitation of the human mind, like a drug. It exists to hit the right triggers to open the gates of a person's decision making. It's like a backdoor. Except, not really. Because the human mind is much easier to exploit than a computer. We can do it very obviously, maybe with nicotine. But we don't even need substances. Just some bright lights and a bar you pull is enough to get people to drain their entire savings. You can even tell them "this doesn't work, you won't win" - it doesn't actually affect the exploit, because the exploit is occurring on a physiological, survival level, and logic is at a higher level than that. It's like trying to stop an active rootkit with Windows Defender. Advertisement is gambling, but normalized. The goal is to develop an exploit to compel humans to work against their interests, to actively harm themselves in hopes of something they require. It's typically simple things like joy or love. They might appeal to the innate desire for socialization, the innate need to be recognized and respected. But, actually, you don't even need that. Even just exposing a brand image, over and over again, with no messaging creates an exploit. Now, they are primed to buy from you as opposed to competitors. Not based on logic, or even emotion - no, something much more intrinsic, much more fundamental to how neurons operate. Pattern recognition. The exploit is so effective and deep-seated that you cannot even be aware if it has occurred, nor can you undo it. Some people believe the point of advertising is to get people to buy things. No, not at all. The point of advertising is for people to buy things all on their own, and make them believe it was done on their own accord. That's the golden goose. Any idiot can hold a gun to someone's head. But true manipulation doesn't require a gun.