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> Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught I’d say it’s the opposite. Self-taught folks I know and have h

> Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught I’d say it’s the opposite. Self-taught folks I know and have hired started their careers earlier than 22 and have had more practical, “actual” experience than their university graduate counterparts at the same age. Also, a university grad with a CS bachelor degree is not going to have anywhere near 4+ years of more field work unless they have been in school for 6 years and have moved slower through the program. As I said, “generally equivalent in all other aspects of the role” sort of assumes equal knowledge or experience anyway. My distinction is more around the tendency of self-taught towards creativity and inventiveness in problem solving outside of learned patterns from their education. They don’t rely on those crutches We will obviously never agree on this-your theory and arguments simply don’t jive with my lived experience. Good luck.

wakawaka28 1y ago
Yes we obviously just won't agree on this but I will just state some final points. You are assuming an awful lot of things about self-taught people that simply are not safe to assume, while assuming that fresh CS grads don't have any field experience. I am only assuming the default for CS grads -- that they actually studied relevant material for 4 years. Many people who go to university also do part-time jobs, internships, and extracurricular projects in their field. I certainly did a lot on my own time on top of the years of classroom work. This whole discussion is fraught with problems. I posit that for those people who feel that they need to sell the fact they have no education, they also lack sufficient experience to be marketable. Certainly, for people with little experience, the person with a degree is objectively more credible than the person without. There may be some self-taught individuals who are amazing in some way, but I think the only reason you ever meet these people to begin with is because the less interesting ones get filtered out. In other words, if you are looking for guidance, not going to university is a bad idea. If the bias against education picks up steam, then you might do even better to go to university then pretend to be self-taught after you have a bit of experience lol. As absurd as that sounds, it jives with what you and the article are claiming.
- kcplate 1y ago
  There are assumptions on both sides. I would say that a big one on your part is just assuming that everyone with a CS degree is by default a competent and capable developer because of their education. Every CS program, professor, and student are not the same and that variance eliminates any self evidence of credibility of a CS degree. However, I’ll admit I have a bias based on my experience, and that certainly results in my assuming more inventiveness of the self-taught. Perhaps I have been lucky on that front. Reality has been that not every self-taught dev has been great and not every CS grad has been bad. However, if I lay it on a balance, the balance for me leans a specific direction when it comes to the best people that I have worked with over the years. Perhaps you are right and I have just been lucky.
  - wakawaka28 1y ago
    I thought I was done but I suppose we have reached the heart of the matter. >There are assumptions on both sides. I would say that a big one on your part is just assuming that everyone with a CS degree is by default a competent and capable developer because of their education. I would never assume such a thing. But for sure, the odds are good. >Every CS program, professor, and student are not the same and that variance eliminates any self evidence of credibility of a CS degree. Well, every accredited program passes certain criteria evaluated on a regular basis. Any student who graduates from one meets the minimum requirements. What are the minimum requirements to claim to be self-taught? There literally aren't any. You just have to bullshit your way into the job. We could potentially accept a lot of self-taught people in other fields. Do you want to drive on a bridge made by a self-taught civil engineer, have your blood drawn by a self-taught nurse, or deal with self-taught drivers on your way to work in the morning? We have credentials for good reasons, even if it may not be strictly necessary to do the job on a logical level. I am beginning to think that your good luck with self-taught colleagues is potentially evidence that only adequately talented self-taught people can make it in the field, in the long run. And software is far more welcoming of self-taught people than just about any other field, certainly among the hard technical fields. People in the arts are very often self-taught, of course.
    - 1y ago

wakawaka28 1y ago

Yes we obviously just won't agree on this but I will just state some final points. You are assuming an awful lot of things about self-taught people that simply are not safe to assume, while assuming that fresh CS grads don't have any field experience. I am only assuming the default for CS grads -- that they actually studied relevant material for 4 years. Many people who go to university also do part-time jobs, internships, and extracurricular projects in their field. I certainly did a lot on my own time on top of the years of classroom work. This whole discussion is fraught with problems. I posit that for those people who feel that they need to sell the fact they have no education, they also lack sufficient experience to be marketable. Certainly, for people with little experience, the person with a degree is objectively more credible than the person without. There may be some self-taught individuals who are amazing in some way, but I think the only reason you ever meet these people to begin with is because the less interesting ones get filtered out. In other words, if you are looking for guidance, not going to university is a bad idea. If the bias against education picks up steam, then you might do even better to go to university then pretend to be self-taught after you have a bit of experience lol. As absurd as that sounds, it jives with what you and the article are claiming.

kcplate 1y ago
There are assumptions on both sides. I would say that a big one on your part is just assuming that everyone with a CS degree is by default a competent and capable developer because of their education. Every CS program, professor, and student are not the same and that variance eliminates any self evidence of credibility of a CS degree. However, I’ll admit I have a bias based on my experience, and that certainly results in my assuming more inventiveness of the self-taught. Perhaps I have been lucky on that front. Reality has been that not every self-taught dev has been great and not every CS grad has been bad. However, if I lay it on a balance, the balance for me leans a specific direction when it comes to the best people that I have worked with over the years. Perhaps you are right and I have just been lucky.
- wakawaka28 1y ago
  I thought I was done but I suppose we have reached the heart of the matter. >There are assumptions on both sides. I would say that a big one on your part is just assuming that everyone with a CS degree is by default a competent and capable developer because of their education. I would never assume such a thing. But for sure, the odds are good. >Every CS program, professor, and student are not the same and that variance eliminates any self evidence of credibility of a CS degree. Well, every accredited program passes certain criteria evaluated on a regular basis. Any student who graduates from one meets the minimum requirements. What are the minimum requirements to claim to be self-taught? There literally aren't any. You just have to bullshit your way into the job. We could potentially accept a lot of self-taught people in other fields. Do you want to drive on a bridge made by a self-taught civil engineer, have your blood drawn by a self-taught nurse, or deal with self-taught drivers on your way to work in the morning? We have credentials for good reasons, even if it may not be strictly necessary to do the job on a logical level. I am beginning to think that your good luck with self-taught colleagues is potentially evidence that only adequately talented self-taught people can make it in the field, in the long run. And software is far more welcoming of self-taught people than just about any other field, certainly among the hard technical fields. People in the arts are very often self-taught, of course.
  - 1y ago