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Apples and oranges. Suffering now is not the same as suffering then - that doesn't mean it's not suffering. This is the same dishonest line of reasoning as "th

Apples and oranges. Suffering now is not the same as suffering then - that doesn't mean it's not suffering. This is the same dishonest line of reasoning as "there are children starving in Africa". That doesn't give the wealthy the right to take food from my children for themselves (indirectly speaking). But you know that. The point is not to make an honest argument, but to oppress. I'm desperate for us to evolve past the point of making these immoral arguments against innocent people, pushing and pushing and pushing until something catastrophically breaks.

monero-xmr 1y ago
The capitalist system has brought all of humanity higher than ever dreamed of by the wealthiest kings in centuries past. People objectively live in more comfort with better health than ever before. Philosophically, if someone gains their wealth from people voluntarily giving them money in the free market, this is the most noble possible way to earn a fortune there is, as they earned it by providing something other people wanted. The most despicable wealthy are those that earned it via government coercion - they literally robbed their fellow citizens
- TFYS 1y ago
  > Philosophically, if someone gains their wealth from people voluntarily giving them money in the free market, this is the most noble possible way to earn a fortune there is People can be manipulated so that they give you money "voluntarily", but I wouldn't call that noble. Probably trillions of dollars are spent trying to manipulate people in various ways to try to convince them to give their money to the wealthy. Some of the most brilliant minds of humanity are working on how to use human psychology and technology to get people to do what they want. When an individual is up against that, I wouldn't call it entirely voluntary. > The capitalist system has brought all of humanity higher than ever dreamed of by the wealthiest kings in centuries past. All of humanity? No, millions still die of hunger. That's because their needs are invisible in a capitalist system, while the wants of those with wealth get the attention of everyone.
  - monero-xmr 1y ago
    You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil, and the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful. I would love to see a successful country that is not capitalist at its core
    - TFYS 1y ago
      > You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil It is. Informing people about solutions to their problems is good, but advertising as it exists today is nothing more than manipulation in most cases. > the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist.
      - monero-xmr 1y ago
        > You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist. Yes, it absolutely has, and there is no example you can provide of a capitalist country providing a worse life than a non-capitalist country
        TFYS 1y ago
        If people are still dying of hunger and preventable diseases in capitalist countries, then it has not lifted all of humanity. I wasn't saying some other system is doing better than capitalism, just that capitalism has not succeeded in bringing all of humanity out of absolute poverty. Anyway, just because capitalism is the best we've come up with so far doesn't mean we can't do better. Would you look at the fastest car today and say "there's no example of a faster car you can provide, therefore this is the fastest car there can ever be". No, we can do better, especially with the technology we now have.
        1y ago
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  "The kids aren't alright." 50,000 people died by suicide in the USA in 2023. 12.8 million thought about it. 3.7 made a plan for it. 1.5 million attempted it. https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/data.html https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/data.html 105,000 people died by overdose in the USA in 2023. https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overd https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overd... In 2023 the average daily incarceration population in the USA was 664,000. https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/jail-inmates-2023-s https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/jail-inmates-2023-s... Average daily homeless population for the USA in 2023 was 653,000. https://nlihc.org/resource/hud-releases-2023-annual-homeless https://nlihc.org/resource/hud-releases-2023-annual-homeless... In 2023 only 86% of US households were food secure. https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo... The majority of US bankruptcies (58.5%) “very much” or “somewhat” agreed that medical expenses contributed, and 44.3% cited illness-related work loss; 66.5% cited at least one of these two medical contributors—equivalent to about 530,000 medical bankruptcies annually. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ American police kill more people than any other country at 1100 people a year. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/
  - cindyllm 1y ago
    [dead]

monero-xmr 1y ago

The capitalist system has brought all of humanity higher than ever dreamed of by the wealthiest kings in centuries past. People objectively live in more comfort with better health than ever before. Philosophically, if someone gains their wealth from people voluntarily giving them money in the free market, this is the most noble possible way to earn a fortune there is, as they earned it by providing something other people wanted. The most despicable wealthy are those that earned it via government coercion - they literally robbed their fellow citizens

TFYS 1y ago
> Philosophically, if someone gains their wealth from people voluntarily giving them money in the free market, this is the most noble possible way to earn a fortune there is People can be manipulated so that they give you money "voluntarily", but I wouldn't call that noble. Probably trillions of dollars are spent trying to manipulate people in various ways to try to convince them to give their money to the wealthy. Some of the most brilliant minds of humanity are working on how to use human psychology and technology to get people to do what they want. When an individual is up against that, I wouldn't call it entirely voluntary. > The capitalist system has brought all of humanity higher than ever dreamed of by the wealthiest kings in centuries past. All of humanity? No, millions still die of hunger. That's because their needs are invisible in a capitalist system, while the wants of those with wealth get the attention of everyone.
- monero-xmr 1y ago
  You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil, and the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful. I would love to see a successful country that is not capitalist at its core
  - TFYS 1y ago
    > You are attacking the concept of marketing / advertising as a fundamental evil It is. Informing people about solutions to their problems is good, but advertising as it exists today is nothing more than manipulation in most cases. > the idea that starving people existing negates the entire system we have which has proven to be successful You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist.
    - monero-xmr 1y ago
      > You said that capitalism has lifted all of humanity, but that is clearly not the case, not even in countries considered capitalist. Yes, it absolutely has, and there is no example you can provide of a capitalist country providing a worse life than a non-capitalist country
      - TFYS 1y ago
        If people are still dying of hunger and preventable diseases in capitalist countries, then it has not lifted all of humanity. I wasn't saying some other system is doing better than capitalism, just that capitalism has not succeeded in bringing all of humanity out of absolute poverty. Anyway, just because capitalism is the best we've come up with so far doesn't mean we can't do better. Would you look at the fastest car today and say "there's no example of a faster car you can provide, therefore this is the fastest car there can ever be". No, we can do better, especially with the technology we now have.
        1y ago
_DeadFred_ 1y ago
"The kids aren't alright." 50,000 people died by suicide in the USA in 2023. 12.8 million thought about it. 3.7 made a plan for it. 1.5 million attempted it. https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/data.html https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/data.html 105,000 people died by overdose in the USA in 2023. https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overd https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overd... In 2023 the average daily incarceration population in the USA was 664,000. https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/jail-inmates-2023-s https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/jail-inmates-2023-s... Average daily homeless population for the USA in 2023 was 653,000. https://nlihc.org/resource/hud-releases-2023-annual-homeless https://nlihc.org/resource/hud-releases-2023-annual-homeless... In 2023 only 86% of US households were food secure. https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo... The majority of US bankruptcies (58.5%) “very much” or “somewhat” agreed that medical expenses contributed, and 44.3% cited illness-related work loss; 66.5% cited at least one of these two medical contributors—equivalent to about 530,000 medical bankruptcies annually. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6366487/ American police kill more people than any other country at 1100 people a year. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/
- cindyllm 1y ago
  [dead]