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I wasn't saying the context I gave was an exhaustive list, I was suggesting that having Googled her name and maybe skimmed a couple of news articles, you might

by tolien 1y ago

I wasn't saying the context I gave was an exhaustive list, I was suggesting that having Googled her name and maybe skimmed a couple of news articles, you might need to do some more reading before forming too much of an opinion. > She didn't throw rocks, she didn't set things on fire, she didn't stab anyone -- it was her speech that got her a multi-year jail term. Your contention seems to be that incitement shouldn't be an offence? That's at odds with legal systems all over the world, including the US, where Brandenburg v Ohio [0] holds that if inflammatory speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" that is an exception to the First Amendment and can be prosecuted, which seems to be at odds with "regardless of whether there were riots ongoing or not". The original point of my first post in this thread was that lumping together arrests for stalking, incitement to violence and other forms of harassment to produce a big scary number makes the argument seem utterly dishonest. The fact that so many "free speech proponents" fixate on one example when, if the stated number is true, there should be thousands of examples every year is a good demonstration of that. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

yesco 1y ago
> That's at odds with legal systems all over the world, including the US Not true. The US has a much higher bar for prosecuting speech than the UK. Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) - 395 U.S. 444 - https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/107965/brandenburg-v-ohio/ https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/107965/brandenburg-v-o... - Speech must be "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action" - AND "likely to incite or produce such action" - General statements like "burn them all" typically fail both prongs The "imminent" requirement is key. Connolly's Facebook post lacked: - Specific targets or locations - Timeframe for action - Direct instructions to specific individuals - Any indication people were prepared to act on her words immediately Here are cases with far more explicit threats that were protected: United States v. Bagdasarian (2009) - https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/221261/united-states-v-bagdasarian/ https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/221261/united-states-v... - Citation: 652 F.3d 1113 (9th Cir. 2011) - Posted that Obama "will have a 50 cal in the head" with racial slurs - Result: Conviction reversed as crude political statement, not true threat United States v. Turner (2013) - https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/904120/united-states-v-turner/ https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/904120/united-states-v... - Citation: 720 F.3d 411 (2d Cir. 2013) - Posted that three federal judges "deserve to die" with their photos and addresses - Result: Conviction overturned as protected political hyperbole Connolly's "set fire to all the hotels" would likely be viewed as angry hyperbole in the United States, not meeting Brandenburg's strict standard. The distinction: The US prosecutes actual incitement (directing a mob to attack a building RIGHT NOW). The UK prosecutes offensive speech that merely might inspire someone, somewhere, someday. Your Brandenburg citation actually proves this difference rather than refutes it. You want thousands of examples? Check Twitter during any US political crisis - they're not prosecuted precisely because Brandenburg protects them.
- tolien 1y ago
  Point taken, but incitement is still an offence in other countries. That the US has specific, and particularly permissive, laws around what constitutes speech is neither here nor there. > You want thousands of examples? Of people people prosecuted for innocuous speech in the UK, the original claim in this thread. Brandenburg doesn't apply there.
  - yesco 1y ago
    I misunderstood what you were trying to imply but still think your premise is mistaken. My reply is merely directed at anyone implying the US's free speech-laws are somehow comparable to the authoritarian anti-free-speech laws the UK has.
    - tolien 1y ago
      Do expand on that point then. Edit: If I remove the reference to Brandenburg, I'm not sure my point substantially changes: Incitement is an offence in the UK and also in other countries. You can argue whether that should be the case or not but that's completely orthogonal. Gathering a whole lot of offenses which happened to include online activity to produce a big number of people who you can claim were prosecuted for something that you can claim is as innocuous as "online posts" is dishonest.
      - yesco 1y ago
        You're playing a shell game with definitions to justify authoritarian speech laws. > lumping together arrests for stalking, incitement to violence and other forms of harassment to produce a big scary number But that's exactly the problem - the UK defines "incitement" and "harassment" so broadly that ordinary political speech becomes criminal: UK "Harassment" includes: - Misgendering someone online - Posting offensive jokes - Retweeting protest footage - Criticizing immigration policy "grossly" UK "Incitement" includes: - Lucy Connolly's Facebook post (31 months) - Jordan Parlour's "every man and their dog should smash [hotel] up" (20 months) - Tyler Kay's "set fire to all the hotels" retweet (38 months) NONE of these would meet Brandenburg's standard in the US. They lack: - Directed at specific individuals - Imminent timeframe - Likelihood of producing immediate action > if the stated number is true, there should be thousands of examples every year There ARE thousands. In 2023: - 3,537 arrested for online speech - 1,991 convicted under Section 127 Communications Act - Hundreds more under Public Order Act You don't hear about most because "UK citizen arrested for offensive tweet" stopped being newsworthy years ago. You're using the word "incitement" to equate UK thought policing with legitimate US restrictions on speech that creates immediate danger. That's like defending China's censorship because "every country bans fraud." The definitions matter. The UK criminalizes hurt feelings. The US criminalizes immediate threats to public safety.

by tolien 1y ago

yesco 1y ago

> That's at odds with legal systems all over the world, including the US Not true. The US has a much higher bar for prosecuting speech than the UK. Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) - 395 U.S. 444 - https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/107965/brandenburg-v-ohio/ https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/107965/brandenburg-v-o... - Speech must be "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action" - AND "likely to incite or produce such action" - General statements like "burn them all" typically fail both prongs The "imminent" requirement is key. Connolly's Facebook post lacked: - Specific targets or locations - Timeframe for action - Direct instructions to specific individuals - Any indication people were prepared to act on her words immediately Here are cases with far more explicit threats that were protected: United States v. Bagdasarian (2009) - https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/221261/united-states-v-bagdasarian/ https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/221261/united-states-v... - Citation: 652 F.3d 1113 (9th Cir. 2011) - Posted that Obama "will have a 50 cal in the head" with racial slurs - Result: Conviction reversed as crude political statement, not true threat United States v. Turner (2013) - https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/904120/united-states-v-turner/ https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/904120/united-states-v... - Citation: 720 F.3d 411 (2d Cir. 2013) - Posted that three federal judges "deserve to die" with their photos and addresses - Result: Conviction overturned as protected political hyperbole Connolly's "set fire to all the hotels" would likely be viewed as angry hyperbole in the United States, not meeting Brandenburg's strict standard. The distinction: The US prosecutes actual incitement (directing a mob to attack a building RIGHT NOW). The UK prosecutes offensive speech that merely might inspire someone, somewhere, someday. Your Brandenburg citation actually proves this difference rather than refutes it. You want thousands of examples? Check Twitter during any US political crisis - they're not prosecuted precisely because Brandenburg protects them.

tolien 1y ago
Point taken, but incitement is still an offence in other countries. That the US has specific, and particularly permissive, laws around what constitutes speech is neither here nor there. > You want thousands of examples? Of people people prosecuted for innocuous speech in the UK, the original claim in this thread. Brandenburg doesn't apply there.
- yesco 1y ago
  I misunderstood what you were trying to imply but still think your premise is mistaken. My reply is merely directed at anyone implying the US's free speech-laws are somehow comparable to the authoritarian anti-free-speech laws the UK has.
  - tolien 1y ago
    Do expand on that point then. Edit: If I remove the reference to Brandenburg, I'm not sure my point substantially changes: Incitement is an offence in the UK and also in other countries. You can argue whether that should be the case or not but that's completely orthogonal. Gathering a whole lot of offenses which happened to include online activity to produce a big number of people who you can claim were prosecuted for something that you can claim is as innocuous as "online posts" is dishonest.
    - yesco 1y ago
      You're playing a shell game with definitions to justify authoritarian speech laws. > lumping together arrests for stalking, incitement to violence and other forms of harassment to produce a big scary number But that's exactly the problem - the UK defines "incitement" and "harassment" so broadly that ordinary political speech becomes criminal: UK "Harassment" includes: - Misgendering someone online - Posting offensive jokes - Retweeting protest footage - Criticizing immigration policy "grossly" UK "Incitement" includes: - Lucy Connolly's Facebook post (31 months) - Jordan Parlour's "every man and their dog should smash [hotel] up" (20 months) - Tyler Kay's "set fire to all the hotels" retweet (38 months) NONE of these would meet Brandenburg's standard in the US. They lack: - Directed at specific individuals - Imminent timeframe - Likelihood of producing immediate action > if the stated number is true, there should be thousands of examples every year There ARE thousands. In 2023: - 3,537 arrested for online speech - 1,991 convicted under Section 127 Communications Act - Hundreds more under Public Order Act You don't hear about most because "UK citizen arrested for offensive tweet" stopped being newsworthy years ago. You're using the word "incitement" to equate UK thought policing with legitimate US restrictions on speech that creates immediate danger. That's like defending China's censorship because "every country bans fraud." The definitions matter. The UK criminalizes hurt feelings. The US criminalizes immediate threats to public safety.