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> Germany is famous for being cloudy and is much further north, much of it is north of the primary US-Canada border. It is one of the leading solar adopters Lo

> Germany is famous for being cloudy and is much further north, much of it is north of the primary US-Canada border. It is one of the leading solar adopters Looks like it's about 12 cents (in USD) more expensive on average per kwh in Germany than Cali So maybe Germany isn't exactly a great example of energy production if it's that much more expensive

acdha 1y ago
That’s both moving the goalposts and also leaving out the true cost comparison. Solving climate change should be worth a lot more than $0.12/kWh and viability in countries like Germany suggests that fossil fuel advocates saying that it would be economically ruinous are not making a good-faith argument.
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  For what it's worth I'm a nuclear advocate not a fossil fuel advocate
  - acdha 1y ago
    I think it has a place in the portfolio but one of the reasons why fossil fuel-backed think tanks like to push nuclear or hydrogen as the green option is that it means years of continued growth in oil consumption before anything competing comes online, whereas solar cuts into their profits within weeks. Deploying solar as much as possible buys the decades we need to get much new nuclear power online and in many cases it doesn’t require much more than buying commodity products.
- colechristensen 1y ago
  Solar is still cheaper than anything else is in Germany. Deutsche Bank thinks so [1] There's no "moving goalposts" possible. Without any morality, preventing future costs, or any such way of adjusting the "real" costs... solar is just cheaper, and by a large margin which is only expected to grow. Yes you need storage and methods to move power east and west, solar is still cheaper. The greediest, most short sighted, heartless monster would still invest in solar before anything else because it makes them the most money. https://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/RPS_DE-PROD/PROD0000000000528292/Costs_of_electricity_generation:_System_costs_matt.PDF?&realload=WSVabk/GF9zSR/~kIhog3qaU/9BKDySnk~l8aXhTFCRjbHEmhoskJJqCjCFt0ehJ https://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/RPS_DE-PROD/PROD0000000000528...
  - acdha 1y ago
    Good point. I’m not familiar with the German power market but the amount in question is small enough that I suspect our descendants will consider it trivial compared to the cost of dealing with a broken climate.
colechristensen 1y ago
>Looks like it's about 12 cents (in USD) more expensive on average per kwh in Germany than Cali What is? Consumer energy prices? Apples-to-apples consumer energy prices are difficult between the US and EU, Germany has historically had particularly high energy prices for various reasons, taxation is significantly different. Also they were a heavy importer of Russian gas and foolishly dismantled their entire nuclear generation capacity, so there are other reasons why their energy prices are high. The peaking energy costs caused by the Ukraine/Russia war have gone down.

acdha 1y ago

That’s both moving the goalposts and also leaving out the true cost comparison. Solving climate change should be worth a lot more than $0.12/kWh and viability in countries like Germany suggests that fossil fuel advocates saying that it would be economically ruinous are not making a good-faith argument.

bluefirebrand 1y ago
For what it's worth I'm a nuclear advocate not a fossil fuel advocate
- acdha 1y ago
  I think it has a place in the portfolio but one of the reasons why fossil fuel-backed think tanks like to push nuclear or hydrogen as the green option is that it means years of continued growth in oil consumption before anything competing comes online, whereas solar cuts into their profits within weeks. Deploying solar as much as possible buys the decades we need to get much new nuclear power online and in many cases it doesn’t require much more than buying commodity products.
colechristensen 1y ago
Solar is still cheaper than anything else is in Germany. Deutsche Bank thinks so [1] There's no "moving goalposts" possible. Without any morality, preventing future costs, or any such way of adjusting the "real" costs... solar is just cheaper, and by a large margin which is only expected to grow. Yes you need storage and methods to move power east and west, solar is still cheaper. The greediest, most short sighted, heartless monster would still invest in solar before anything else because it makes them the most money. https://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/RPS_DE-PROD/PROD0000000000528292/Costs_of_electricity_generation:_System_costs_matt.PDF?&realload=WSVabk/GF9zSR/~kIhog3qaU/9BKDySnk~l8aXhTFCRjbHEmhoskJJqCjCFt0ehJ https://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/RPS_DE-PROD/PROD0000000000528...
- acdha 1y ago
  Good point. I’m not familiar with the German power market but the amount in question is small enough that I suspect our descendants will consider it trivial compared to the cost of dealing with a broken climate.

colechristensen 1y ago

>Looks like it's about 12 cents (in USD) more expensive on average per kwh in Germany than Cali What is? Consumer energy prices? Apples-to-apples consumer energy prices are difficult between the US and EU, Germany has historically had particularly high energy prices for various reasons, taxation is significantly different. Also they were a heavy importer of Russian gas and foolishly dismantled their entire nuclear generation capacity, so there are other reasons why their energy prices are high. The peaking energy costs caused by the Ukraine/Russia war have gone down.