8 ms·

India: Income Tax Bill allows officials to forcibly access social media, email

117 points by LordAtlas 1y ago

lenerdenator 1y ago
Since I can't read it (not disabling ad blocker), does this mean they can do it without the Indian justice system's equivalent to a warrant is?
- masfuerte 1y ago
  You need a stricter ad blocker. It is readable with js disabled.
- triknomeister 1y ago
  No. Search and seizure (of which the social media search is now a part of) already needs a due process, but it is not exactly judicial. https://cleartax.in/s/income-tax-raid https://cleartax.in/s/income-tax-raid
- goku12 1y ago
  The article says that it can be done as part of search and seizure operations. And such an operation requires a search warrant. So I'm guessing not. However, the concern is that it may be used to extract information beyond what's relevant to income tax. Honestly, that isn't very farfetched because there have been allegations of planting incriminating evidence using the Pegasus malware. In comparison, a warrant isn't going to be much of a hurdle.
  - janice1999 1y ago
    For those interested: "Police Linked to Hacking Campaign to Frame Indian Activists" https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-evidence-hacking-police/ https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-eviden...
- LordAtlas 1y ago
  No, India has draconian laws about search and seizure (and one could argue, about a whole lot of other legal issues) when it comes to the Income Tax department. It doesn't require a judicial warrant, merely authorisation from a senior official in the Income Tax department (the list is given in the link posted below by another person.) In practice, Income Tax "raids" have been used as instruments of oppression by governments of the day against political rivals, media outlets critical of the government, or pretty much any person they didn't like following a "the process is the punishment" philosophy. You have to justify every last thing. It's "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes the to Income Tax department in India. They already could seize all your electronic equipment - phones, computers, etc. - as part of a raid and go through all your files to check if you were "evading income". These new amendments allow them to get even more draconian by compelling you to provide access to your email and social media accounts, which means you have absolutely zero privacy and evidence could even be planted on your accounts if needed. Of course, that would never happen because there is zero corruption in India. /s
  - crop_rotation 1y ago
    Comments like this make me wish HN had a comment pinning or star feature.
    - freedomben 1y ago
      Not quite the same thing, but you can "favorite" comments
never_inline 1y ago
Ah what are they going to do with the information gained from my social media that I don't like dynamically typed languages and prefer SQL to NoSQL?
seydor 1y ago
I m sort of glad to see these overreaches happening. It's natural punishment for the carelessness with which people lived and shared their lives in global audience 24/7 for what is ultimately selfish and narcissist reasons. It's an insane society we live in, and nature self-corrects.
screye 1y ago
I don't agree with the bill, but I empathize with the motivation. Infamously in the US, the IRS knows all. In India, the IRS runs blind. Here, tax evasion is the norm with only 2.2% of the population paying income tax. > expanded scope of powers given to tax officials during search and seizure For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house. Yes, it limits freedoms. But, no more than than was the norm in a pre-internet India.
- astar1 1y ago
  hmm, this Economist article from earlier this month shows just how bad things are in India: https://archive.is/bttaV https://archive.is/bttaV The last thing india needs is more bureaucracy and regulations and restrictions on personal freedoms (not to mention a free press which they've plummeted since the current PM's party took control).
- shivasaxena 1y ago
  > Infamously in the US, the IRS knows all. In India, the IRS runs blind. Here, tax evasion is the norm with only 2.2% of the population paying income tax. That's not true. Every year you get emails to file IT returns, and they have all records of all foreign flights I took, forex transactions I made on my card etc. Everything is linked to your PAN and Aaadhaar. To be clear this is fine with me. > For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house. Fine. However this is an overreach since tax evasion is not as a big problem as it was a decade ago due to digitization. Tax to GDP is still low at around 11%, but that's because much of the population isn't required to pay tax(no tax till 12k$ which is too generous, they should instead decrease PIT threshold and reduce consumption taxes).
  - FallCheeta7373 1y ago
vaibhavkalekar 1y ago
[dead]
thunderbong 1y ago
https://archive.ph/Vp27Z https://archive.ph/Vp27Z
hshshshshsh 1y ago
Everytime I regret moving abroad India makes sure I don't.
- OutOfHere 1y ago
  One just has to learn to use actual encrypted chat (better than WhatsApp), encrypted containers, and Monero with no-log VPNs. Let them search all they want. Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.
  - bdavbdav 1y ago
    That’s great and all, but if you have a wide social circle, and diverse interests etc, it’s quite hard to shun all mainstream services.
  - crop_rotation 1y ago
    Honest question, have you really lived in India and seen how the local government society functions? Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
    - OutOfHere 1y ago
      I am not there, but necessity is the mother of invention, even at a social level. Regarding your xkcd link, they cannot detain and torture you if you immediately get a court judge to grant bail or to toss the case. Those who do shady business should stay prepared.
      - Izikiel43 1y ago
        That's a very big IF doing the work there.
        OutOfHere 1y ago
        The comment suggesting torture (via the xkcd link) is also a very big IF. There is no proof of the existence of torture for such routine investigations. The article notes: > if a person is found to be in possession or control of any books of account, or other documents and information maintained digitally, on computer systems, or stored electronically, then they must provide the designated income tax officer “reasonable technical and other assistance (including access code, by whatever name called) as may be necessary” to enable the officer to inspect “any information, electronic records and communication or data contained in or available on such computer systems”. > “In most of the cases of search operation the taxpayers do not share the password/login credential of online forums/portals/e-mail accounts, etc. The article does not note what will happen when the defendant does not share the info. It is the best interest of the defendant to not share the info. Going forward, it is very possible that the defendant will incur a small fine for non-compliance instead of a big fine for tax evasion, so it's still a favorable outcome. There is no proof of torture or even imprisonment.
crop_rotation 1y ago
India is just screwed. It is in this insane democratic autocratic hybrid where you don't get much freedoms but every government has to have a short term focus to win the next election and thus igniting caste/religion/other inflammatory issues. Social media has caused this mass delusion where Indian problems can not even be discussed openly without being labelled a foreign agent or something worse. If you stop talking about the problems they don't just disappear. For westerners, one quick thing you need to understand is that in India the written laws and constitution are totally irrelevant for day to day life, so the written law providing 100 freedoms is irrelevant. Anyone who has power can mostly do whatever they want to a large extent (offcourse there are limits basis how powerful they are). Just like in America it is said that the poor think of themselves as temporarily poor and rich someday, in India most people dream of gaining power and that sweet corruption money someday. People spend 5-10 years doing nothing but studying to get one of those sweet government jobs where bribes are universal and easily >5x your income. Like in India everyone knows where black money is, well except the Government it seems. If the government had any interest in fixing tax avoidance they had many easy ways, but the Government is mostly interested in power.
- anon291 1y ago
  India is not destined to be screwed, but it will be screwed if it continues to do what it does. You've misidentified the problem though. Everything in India is against the law. This allows Indian government officials to selectively prosecute and enforce the law. This leads to chaos. You can talk about how this is due to voter politics, or whatever. But it's not. It's due to Indian parenting which broadly follows the same model of everything being wrong. As someone whose parents migrated from India to America, believe me, I know exactly how this works. This cultural trait is so embedded in Indian culture, but it is possible to eliminate.
  - hadlock 1y ago
    > selectively prosecute and enforce the law ... Indian parenting model of everything being wrong. This cultural trait is so embedded in Indian culture, but it is possible to eliminate. Can you expand on this, for better understanding by someone not familiar with this style of culture/parenting; and if you have any knowledge, does this also extend to Pakistani and Bangladeshi culture as well? Thanks
sreejithr 1y ago
US does this too btw
- pnw 1y ago
  Without a court order?
  - reverendsteveii 1y ago
    https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority/border-search-electronic-devices https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority/border-searc... Yes
  - 1024core 1y ago
    Have you heard of things like "Civil Assets Forfeiture"? Where the USG sues the money and not you. And expects the money to defend itself?
    - pnw 1y ago
      Sure, but how does that relate to the topic of forcible access to email etc?
      - jfyi 1y ago
        Are you familiar with Lavabit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit It may not be directly equatable, but it's pretty close. How many providers do you think just rolled over and we never heard from?
OutOfHere 1y ago
It's pretty much going to move people to self-custodied crypto, whether to stablecoins or privacycoins or otherwise. Couple this with actual encrypted communications apps, well beyond WhatsApp, also encrypted containers. Let them search all they want. Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.
- crop_rotation 1y ago
  Yeah none of that is going to happen here except by maybe 1 in 10 million people.
  - dartharva 1y ago
    The ones who actually do intend to hide black money will definitely figure out the ways. You say "none of that is going to happen" because the need never registered to you yet. If you actually investigate you'll be shocked at how deep India's cybercriminal undergrounds run.
    - crop_rotation 1y ago
      The ones who do actually have black money also have power and hence have nothing to worry here. Most of black money is with Government servant and politicians, so this is all irrelevant.
      - akudha 1y ago
        This is usually the case with onerous rules and regulations. Actual criminals have the means and motivation to work around any law. There will be a percentage of dumb/small criminals who will get caught, and the time and effort spent in catching them might not be worth it in the end. As usual, the common man who is honest and wants to follow rules will have to jump through hoops and hardships. This isn't unique to India though. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be laws and rules. Just that creating and enforcing the right level of rules and regulations isn't as straightforward as it sounds. Theft is theft, whether it is $10 or a Billion, but it would make sense to go after the dude who stole a Billion first, rather than the hungry dude who stole $10 for food. But the thief who stole a Billion has the smarts, motivation and means necessary to beat any laws

117 points by LordAtlas 1y ago

Since I can't read it (not disabling ad blocker), does this mean they can do it without the Indian justice system's equivalent to a warrant is?

masfuerte 1y ago
You need a stricter ad blocker. It is readable with js disabled.
triknomeister 1y ago
No. Search and seizure (of which the social media search is now a part of) already needs a due process, but it is not exactly judicial. https://cleartax.in/s/income-tax-raid https://cleartax.in/s/income-tax-raid
goku12 1y ago
The article says that it can be done as part of search and seizure operations. And such an operation requires a search warrant. So I'm guessing not. However, the concern is that it may be used to extract information beyond what's relevant to income tax. Honestly, that isn't very farfetched because there have been allegations of planting incriminating evidence using the Pegasus malware. In comparison, a warrant isn't going to be much of a hurdle.
- janice1999 1y ago
  For those interested: "Police Linked to Hacking Campaign to Frame Indian Activists" https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-evidence-hacking-police/ https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-eviden...
LordAtlas 1y ago
No, India has draconian laws about search and seizure (and one could argue, about a whole lot of other legal issues) when it comes to the Income Tax department. It doesn't require a judicial warrant, merely authorisation from a senior official in the Income Tax department (the list is given in the link posted below by another person.) In practice, Income Tax "raids" have been used as instruments of oppression by governments of the day against political rivals, media outlets critical of the government, or pretty much any person they didn't like following a "the process is the punishment" philosophy. You have to justify every last thing. It's "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes the to Income Tax department in India. They already could seize all your electronic equipment - phones, computers, etc. - as part of a raid and go through all your files to check if you were "evading income". These new amendments allow them to get even more draconian by compelling you to provide access to your email and social media accounts, which means you have absolutely zero privacy and evidence could even be planted on your accounts if needed. Of course, that would never happen because there is zero corruption in India. /s
- crop_rotation 1y ago
  Comments like this make me wish HN had a comment pinning or star feature.
  - freedomben 1y ago
    Not quite the same thing, but you can "favorite" comments

never_inline 1y ago

Ah what are they going to do with the information gained from my social media that I don't like dynamically typed languages and prefer SQL to NoSQL?

seydor 1y ago

I m sort of glad to see these overreaches happening. It's natural punishment for the carelessness with which people lived and shared their lives in global audience 24/7 for what is ultimately selfish and narcissist reasons. It's an insane society we live in, and nature self-corrects.

screye 1y ago

I don't agree with the bill, but I empathize with the motivation. Infamously in the US, the IRS knows all. In India, the IRS runs blind. Here, tax evasion is the norm with only 2.2% of the population paying income tax. > expanded scope of powers given to tax officials during search and seizure For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house. Yes, it limits freedoms. But, no more than than was the norm in a pre-internet India.

astar1 1y ago
hmm, this Economist article from earlier this month shows just how bad things are in India: https://archive.is/bttaV https://archive.is/bttaV The last thing india needs is more bureaucracy and regulations and restrictions on personal freedoms (not to mention a free press which they've plummeted since the current PM's party took control).
shivasaxena 1y ago
> Infamously in the US, the IRS knows all. In India, the IRS runs blind. Here, tax evasion is the norm with only 2.2% of the population paying income tax. That's not true. Every year you get emails to file IT returns, and they have all records of all foreign flights I took, forex transactions I made on my card etc. Everything is linked to your PAN and Aaadhaar. To be clear this is fine with me. > For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house. Fine. However this is an overreach since tax evasion is not as a big problem as it was a decade ago due to digitization. Tax to GDP is still low at around 11%, but that's because much of the population isn't required to pay tax(no tax till 12k$ which is too generous, they should instead decrease PIT threshold and reduce consumption taxes).
- FallCheeta7373 1y ago

vaibhavkalekar 1y ago

[dead]

thunderbong 1y ago

https://archive.ph/Vp27Z https://archive.ph/Vp27Z

hshshshshsh 1y ago

Everytime I regret moving abroad India makes sure I don't.

OutOfHere 1y ago
One just has to learn to use actual encrypted chat (better than WhatsApp), encrypted containers, and Monero with no-log VPNs. Let them search all they want. Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.
- bdavbdav 1y ago
  That’s great and all, but if you have a wide social circle, and diverse interests etc, it’s quite hard to shun all mainstream services.
- crop_rotation 1y ago
  Honest question, have you really lived in India and seen how the local government society functions? Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
  - OutOfHere 1y ago
    I am not there, but necessity is the mother of invention, even at a social level. Regarding your xkcd link, they cannot detain and torture you if you immediately get a court judge to grant bail or to toss the case. Those who do shady business should stay prepared.
    - Izikiel43 1y ago
      That's a very big IF doing the work there.
      - OutOfHere 1y ago
        The comment suggesting torture (via the xkcd link) is also a very big IF. There is no proof of the existence of torture for such routine investigations. The article notes: > if a person is found to be in possession or control of any books of account, or other documents and information maintained digitally, on computer systems, or stored electronically, then they must provide the designated income tax officer “reasonable technical and other assistance (including access code, by whatever name called) as may be necessary” to enable the officer to inspect “any information, electronic records and communication or data contained in or available on such computer systems”. > “In most of the cases of search operation the taxpayers do not share the password/login credential of online forums/portals/e-mail accounts, etc. The article does not note what will happen when the defendant does not share the info. It is the best interest of the defendant to not share the info. Going forward, it is very possible that the defendant will incur a small fine for non-compliance instead of a big fine for tax evasion, so it's still a favorable outcome. There is no proof of torture or even imprisonment.

crop_rotation 1y ago

India is just screwed. It is in this insane democratic autocratic hybrid where you don't get much freedoms but every government has to have a short term focus to win the next election and thus igniting caste/religion/other inflammatory issues. Social media has caused this mass delusion where Indian problems can not even be discussed openly without being labelled a foreign agent or something worse. If you stop talking about the problems they don't just disappear. For westerners, one quick thing you need to understand is that in India the written laws and constitution are totally irrelevant for day to day life, so the written law providing 100 freedoms is irrelevant. Anyone who has power can mostly do whatever they want to a large extent (offcourse there are limits basis how powerful they are). Just like in America it is said that the poor think of themselves as temporarily poor and rich someday, in India most people dream of gaining power and that sweet corruption money someday. People spend 5-10 years doing nothing but studying to get one of those sweet government jobs where bribes are universal and easily >5x your income. Like in India everyone knows where black money is, well except the Government it seems. If the government had any interest in fixing tax avoidance they had many easy ways, but the Government is mostly interested in power.

anon291 1y ago
India is not destined to be screwed, but it will be screwed if it continues to do what it does. You've misidentified the problem though. Everything in India is against the law. This allows Indian government officials to selectively prosecute and enforce the law. This leads to chaos. You can talk about how this is due to voter politics, or whatever. But it's not. It's due to Indian parenting which broadly follows the same model of everything being wrong. As someone whose parents migrated from India to America, believe me, I know exactly how this works. This cultural trait is so embedded in Indian culture, but it is possible to eliminate.
- hadlock 1y ago
  > selectively prosecute and enforce the law ... Indian parenting model of everything being wrong. This cultural trait is so embedded in Indian culture, but it is possible to eliminate. Can you expand on this, for better understanding by someone not familiar with this style of culture/parenting; and if you have any knowledge, does this also extend to Pakistani and Bangladeshi culture as well? Thanks

sreejithr 1y ago

US does this too btw

pnw 1y ago
Without a court order?
- reverendsteveii 1y ago
  https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority/border-search-electronic-devices https://www.cbp.gov/travel/cbp-search-authority/border-searc... Yes
- 1024core 1y ago
  Have you heard of things like "Civil Assets Forfeiture"? Where the USG sues the money and not you. And expects the money to defend itself?
  - pnw 1y ago
    Sure, but how does that relate to the topic of forcible access to email etc?
    - jfyi 1y ago
      Are you familiar with Lavabit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit It may not be directly equatable, but it's pretty close. How many providers do you think just rolled over and we never heard from?

OutOfHere 1y ago

It's pretty much going to move people to self-custodied crypto, whether to stablecoins or privacycoins or otherwise. Couple this with actual encrypted communications apps, well beyond WhatsApp, also encrypted containers. Let them search all they want. Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.

crop_rotation 1y ago
Yeah none of that is going to happen here except by maybe 1 in 10 million people.
- dartharva 1y ago
  The ones who actually do intend to hide black money will definitely figure out the ways. You say "none of that is going to happen" because the need never registered to you yet. If you actually investigate you'll be shocked at how deep India's cybercriminal undergrounds run.
  - crop_rotation 1y ago
    The ones who do actually have black money also have power and hence have nothing to worry here. Most of black money is with Government servant and politicians, so this is all irrelevant.
    - akudha 1y ago
      This is usually the case with onerous rules and regulations. Actual criminals have the means and motivation to work around any law. There will be a percentage of dumb/small criminals who will get caught, and the time and effort spent in catching them might not be worth it in the end. As usual, the common man who is honest and wants to follow rules will have to jump through hoops and hardships. This isn't unique to India though. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be laws and rules. Just that creating and enforcing the right level of rules and regulations isn't as straightforward as it sounds. Theft is theft, whether it is $10 or a Billion, but it would make sense to go after the dude who stole a Billion first, rather than the hungry dude who stole $10 for food. But the thief who stole a Billion has the smarts, motivation and means necessary to beat any laws