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Capitalism has its problems, but its critical selling point is that, if it works well, you don't need official approval to do business. In the USSR, it was a cr

Capitalism has its problems, but its critical selling point is that, if it works well, you don't need official approval to do business. In the USSR, it was a crime to compete with the one established business: the state. Fusions of state and business power (whether from the left, as in communism, or from the right, as in fascism) are almost always bad. The major win (practical and moral) in capitalism is the right of the individual to interact with the market without official approval. If you look at corporate hierarchies, however, you see that they're run internally like command economies. Headcounts and projects are written up and assigned by gloomy, bureaucratic committees detached from the actual heartbeat of the business. You're assigned a role, and if you try to "compete" by seeking a different role or starting a skunk-works project, most companies will fire you or otherwise work to shut you down. Companies are statist in the extreme. Corporatism is a system designed to give the best of both systems (capitalism and socialism) for a well-connected, parasitic social elite (called "the 1 percent", but really they're about 0.2%) and the worst of both for everyone else. You see this, for example, in commercial air travel, where you get Soviet quality of service but the bizarre, unpredictable pricing you'd expect from a runaway market (that is actually not so much a "market" as an algorithm designed to fuck you over).

mlvljr 14y ago
Actually, during Stalin times, the state delegated substantial part of no-high tech production to cooperative businesses ("артели"). Only later the system turned into a monolithic state monopoly.
yummyfajitas 14y ago
...or from the right, as in fascism... Fascism was (by modern US standards) a center-left ideology. It emphasizes collectivism/corporatism, authoritarianism and nationalism. You are also using the term "corporatism" incorrectly. Corporatism is a political system which elevates the rights of privileged corporates (a better modern term would be "special interest groups") above the rights of individuals. A good example of modern corporatism would be disparate impact-based policies - e.g., "we shouldn't allow this neighborhood to gentrify because a privileged corporate might disproportionately move out of this neighborhood." I think what you meant by "corporatism" is actually "cronyism".
- _delirium 14y ago
  On purely economic grounds, I could see that characterization, but fascism's principal features don't have a lot of support among centrists or leftists. It emphasizes a unified ethnic culture (which includes opposition to multiculturalism and a general xenophobia), a military-first policy, and national-greatness/exceptionalism, all of which are typically associated with the right. In a U.S. context, rural conservatives share many more of those features than either urban conservatives or liberals: they combine a mild economic populism with opposition to multiculturalism, strong support for American exceptionalism, suppression of "deviant" individual behavior (porn, profanity, blasphemy, homosexuality, etc.), support for a strong military, etc. A closer but now largely defunct analog might be the old Dixiecrats. In Europe you commonly find descended ideologies in the far-right parties. In Denmark, for example, the Dansk Folkeparti combines support for a social welfare system—for Danes—with strong opposition to allowing non-Danes to enter the country, exclusion of immigrants from social-welfare benefits, legislation in favor of protecting Danish culture and combatting the importation of foreign cultural elements, banning mosque construction, and a strong military to fight Islamism worldwide.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    Sad fact - fascism and virtually every other ideology of 30's incorporated racism. Racism was just an easy way to garner support. It's also a sideshow to the intellectual basis for fascism, which is collectivism and authoritarianism. (The name is derived from the word "fasces", which is Italian for a bundle of sticks.) That said, fascism isn't all that accurately classified as left wing either. While modern left wingers do embrace the collectivism that fascism is based on, fascism doesn't care much about "social justice", "inequality", or any of the other big left wing buzzwords. Similarly, fascism cares very little about various other right wing values, e.g. traditional protestant values or whatever. They are a convenient way to convince particular corporates to join your syndicate (making it stronger), but that's all. This is why I characterize it as "center left" - it doesn't fit easily with any mainstream ideology, but collectivism does point more left than right. Racism is also irrelevant when attempting to determine where fascism lives. Racism is split pretty evenly across American political parties, and it is not a significant part of any major American ideology: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/08/racism-by-political-party.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/08/rac...
csense 14y ago
> You see this, for example, in commercial air travel, where you get Soviet quality of service but the bizarre, unpredictable pricing you'd expect from a runaway market (that is actually not so much a "market" as an algorithm designed to fuck you over). I don't do much air travel, so I can't say much about this personally. My questions about this specific topic are as follows: 1. Why don't the substandard airlines have their lunch eaten by a startup airline which combines good service with a simple pricing schedule? 2. What alternative are you proposing? > Corporatism is a system designed to give the best of both systems (capitalism and socialism) for a well-connected, parasitic social elite As far as I know -- again, I don't fly on a regular basis -- you don't have to be part of a "well-connected, parasitic social elite" to fly business class; cash or credit card will suffice. Likewise, you don't have to have any qualifications whatsoever, let alone be part of the "well-connected, parasitic social elite...[which is really] about 0.2%", in order to build your own company or become a shareholder of a publicly traded one.

mlvljr 14y ago

Actually, during Stalin times, the state delegated substantial part of no-high tech production to cooperative businesses ("артели"). Only later the system turned into a monolithic state monopoly.

yummyfajitas 14y ago

...or from the right, as in fascism... Fascism was (by modern US standards) a center-left ideology. It emphasizes collectivism/corporatism, authoritarianism and nationalism. You are also using the term "corporatism" incorrectly. Corporatism is a political system which elevates the rights of privileged corporates (a better modern term would be "special interest groups") above the rights of individuals. A good example of modern corporatism would be disparate impact-based policies - e.g., "we shouldn't allow this neighborhood to gentrify because a privileged corporate might disproportionately move out of this neighborhood." I think what you meant by "corporatism" is actually "cronyism".

_delirium 14y ago
On purely economic grounds, I could see that characterization, but fascism's principal features don't have a lot of support among centrists or leftists. It emphasizes a unified ethnic culture (which includes opposition to multiculturalism and a general xenophobia), a military-first policy, and national-greatness/exceptionalism, all of which are typically associated with the right. In a U.S. context, rural conservatives share many more of those features than either urban conservatives or liberals: they combine a mild economic populism with opposition to multiculturalism, strong support for American exceptionalism, suppression of "deviant" individual behavior (porn, profanity, blasphemy, homosexuality, etc.), support for a strong military, etc. A closer but now largely defunct analog might be the old Dixiecrats. In Europe you commonly find descended ideologies in the far-right parties. In Denmark, for example, the Dansk Folkeparti combines support for a social welfare system—for Danes—with strong opposition to allowing non-Danes to enter the country, exclusion of immigrants from social-welfare benefits, legislation in favor of protecting Danish culture and combatting the importation of foreign cultural elements, banning mosque construction, and a strong military to fight Islamism worldwide.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  Sad fact - fascism and virtually every other ideology of 30's incorporated racism. Racism was just an easy way to garner support. It's also a sideshow to the intellectual basis for fascism, which is collectivism and authoritarianism. (The name is derived from the word "fasces", which is Italian for a bundle of sticks.) That said, fascism isn't all that accurately classified as left wing either. While modern left wingers do embrace the collectivism that fascism is based on, fascism doesn't care much about "social justice", "inequality", or any of the other big left wing buzzwords. Similarly, fascism cares very little about various other right wing values, e.g. traditional protestant values or whatever. They are a convenient way to convince particular corporates to join your syndicate (making it stronger), but that's all. This is why I characterize it as "center left" - it doesn't fit easily with any mainstream ideology, but collectivism does point more left than right. Racism is also irrelevant when attempting to determine where fascism lives. Racism is split pretty evenly across American political parties, and it is not a significant part of any major American ideology: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/08/racism-by-political-party.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/08/rac...

csense 14y ago

> You see this, for example, in commercial air travel, where you get Soviet quality of service but the bizarre, unpredictable pricing you'd expect from a runaway market (that is actually not so much a "market" as an algorithm designed to fuck you over). I don't do much air travel, so I can't say much about this personally. My questions about this specific topic are as follows: 1. Why don't the substandard airlines have their lunch eaten by a startup airline which combines good service with a simple pricing schedule? 2. What alternative are you proposing? > Corporatism is a system designed to give the best of both systems (capitalism and socialism) for a well-connected, parasitic social elite As far as I know -- again, I don't fly on a regular basis -- you don't have to be part of a "well-connected, parasitic social elite" to fly business class; cash or credit card will suffice. Likewise, you don't have to have any qualifications whatsoever, let alone be part of the "well-connected, parasitic social elite...[which is really] about 0.2%", in order to build your own company or become a shareholder of a publicly traded one.