3 ms·

Is there really a big difference if the chick is destroyed shortly before or shortly after hatching? Why is hatched-or-not the ethical standard?

rtkwe 1y ago
The embryo is a lot less developed at the 9-15 day window, there's not a chance to really feel pain or panic and from a human perspective they're a lot less cute so their death is less affecting. The change from barely differentiate lump to chick happens rapidly in the last few days: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-72004-y/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-72004-y/figures/2
cFyrute 1y ago
It's just a clump of cells. Maybe the hen isn't ready to start a family and is still discovering herself? Her broody her choice.
- RansomStark 1y ago
  Not a fan of the delivery, but, I think its an interesting point, and that both movements have a similar idea at their core, that life begins at birth / hatching. I think the parallels are interesting.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    but if we go there we need to ask a more fundamental question. (to avoid a misinterpretation of what i am saying, i'd like to make clear that i am not vegan or vegetarian, i do eat meat and eggs) the question on where life begins is rather irrelevant until we answer the question of where the life of a chicken is supposed to end. if the possibility that life may begin at conception is going to be a consideration when destroying eggs because they are male, then the same consideration must be made when we chose to eat eggs in the first place. we can't argue that eating eggs is ok, but destroying them is not. consequently, as long as we eat eggs the question of when life begins is not really relevant. the relevant questions are: can we avoid destroying/wasting those eggs at all (can we eat them?) and if ee have to destroy them, what is the most humane way to go about it? my intuition suggests that destroying the eggs is more humane than letting them hatch
    - RansomStark 1y ago
      That's not quite right. These male chicks are from fertilized eggs. They are the ones that, had they been female, would have become the next set of egg layers. The eggs we eat, at least the factory farmed variety, and most / all from commercial egg farms are not fertilized. Hens lay whether they've known the touch of a rooster or not. [0]. [0] https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/can_you_hatch_an_egg_bought_from_the_store https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/can_you_hatch_an_egg_bought_fr...
      - em-bee 1y ago
        you are right, yes, the eggs from big producers are not fertilized. i forgot about that detail. but depending on where you are there is a good chance that you can get fertilized eggs as well, or can't be certain that they are not fertilized. nevertheless it does change the equation, because it would be possible to ensure that only unfertilized eggs are consumed. thank you for the correction.
michaelmrose 1y ago
If destroyed early enough one imagines it doesn't have a sufficient brain to have a conscious awareness of its existence and therefore would not suffer fear not pain
- tantalor 1y ago
  Then what about the chickens we slaughter for meat? I don't see how you can support this in-ovo thing, and also eat meat. They seem to be in opposition.
  - michaelmrose 1y ago
    Why? People often stake out positions better than comic book villains without being saints.
smokel 1y ago
Possibly this is related to our individualistic society. The easier it is to project one's own pain onto something, the easier it is to assume that it is a universal problem.

rtkwe 1y ago

The embryo is a lot less developed at the 9-15 day window, there's not a chance to really feel pain or panic and from a human perspective they're a lot less cute so their death is less affecting. The change from barely differentiate lump to chick happens rapidly in the last few days: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-72004-y/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-72004-y/figures/2

cFyrute 1y ago

It's just a clump of cells. Maybe the hen isn't ready to start a family and is still discovering herself? Her broody her choice.

RansomStark 1y ago
Not a fan of the delivery, but, I think its an interesting point, and that both movements have a similar idea at their core, that life begins at birth / hatching. I think the parallels are interesting.
- em-bee 1y ago
  but if we go there we need to ask a more fundamental question. (to avoid a misinterpretation of what i am saying, i'd like to make clear that i am not vegan or vegetarian, i do eat meat and eggs) the question on where life begins is rather irrelevant until we answer the question of where the life of a chicken is supposed to end. if the possibility that life may begin at conception is going to be a consideration when destroying eggs because they are male, then the same consideration must be made when we chose to eat eggs in the first place. we can't argue that eating eggs is ok, but destroying them is not. consequently, as long as we eat eggs the question of when life begins is not really relevant. the relevant questions are: can we avoid destroying/wasting those eggs at all (can we eat them?) and if ee have to destroy them, what is the most humane way to go about it? my intuition suggests that destroying the eggs is more humane than letting them hatch
  - RansomStark 1y ago
    That's not quite right. These male chicks are from fertilized eggs. They are the ones that, had they been female, would have become the next set of egg layers. The eggs we eat, at least the factory farmed variety, and most / all from commercial egg farms are not fertilized. Hens lay whether they've known the touch of a rooster or not. [0]. [0] https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/can_you_hatch_an_egg_bought_from_the_store https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/can_you_hatch_an_egg_bought_fr...
    - em-bee 1y ago
      you are right, yes, the eggs from big producers are not fertilized. i forgot about that detail. but depending on where you are there is a good chance that you can get fertilized eggs as well, or can't be certain that they are not fertilized. nevertheless it does change the equation, because it would be possible to ensure that only unfertilized eggs are consumed. thank you for the correction.

michaelmrose 1y ago

If destroyed early enough one imagines it doesn't have a sufficient brain to have a conscious awareness of its existence and therefore would not suffer fear not pain

tantalor 1y ago
Then what about the chickens we slaughter for meat? I don't see how you can support this in-ovo thing, and also eat meat. They seem to be in opposition.
- michaelmrose 1y ago
  Why? People often stake out positions better than comic book villains without being saints.

smokel 1y ago

Possibly this is related to our individualistic society. The easier it is to project one's own pain onto something, the easier it is to assume that it is a universal problem.