5 ms·

> Why was it possible for him to enter? This is probably the main one. I could completely understand wanting the assistance of a loved one for mundane things l

> Why was it possible for him to enter? This is probably the main one. I could completely understand wanting the assistance of a loved one for mundane things like standing up. Although to your “not prepped for MRI” point, it is kind of wild that someone with a 20 lbs chain around their neck would be allowed even on the same floor as a MRI machine. Although last time I saw one in person, the door to the room did have some pretty blunt warning text in large print.

leptons 1y ago
You would think a simple metal detector to go through before the lock on the MRI room door unlocks would be a requirement. I guess maybe the MRI machine might interfere with metal detecting?
- scarier 1y ago
  Nope, metal detectors are fairly typical for MRI access. They just generally aren’t set up as an engineering control like you suggest.
  - leptons 1y ago
    I'm not sure what "engineering control" means. Just put it in front of the door to the MRI room. Alarm goes off, you do not get to enter, it should be as simple as that.
    - scarier 1y ago
      An engineering control is how your microwave works—if the door isn’t physically closed, it can’t run. The way many (most?) hospitals currently operate is called an administrative control—analogous to a sign on the microwave door telling people not to run the microwave with the door open or open the door when the microwave is on.
      - leptons 1y ago
        But MRI machines can't be turned on and shut off that easily. As someone here explained, it takes up to 15 minutes for the magnet in an MRI to "shut down", and costs $50,000 each time. Why not just control access to the room behind a metal detector? It would be really simple, but effective. I don't think any MRI should be allowed to operate without this basic level of protection.
        scarier 1y ago
        Sure, an engineering control for MRI room access would be implemented differently--that's just the canonical example that people are familiar with. One possible implementation for MRI access is the airlock method, where the inner access door would only be allowed to unlock with the outer door locked and no metal detected in the space between (also the outer door would be prohibited from unlocking when the inner door is unlocked, except for some kind of inner emergency override that might also be tied to the emergency quench). Literally no one disagrees with you on this, and most (if not all) hospital administrators will say they already do it the way you suggest. I'm pointing out that the actual implementations I'm aware of are often ineffective because they use administrative rather than engineering controls, and this is a critical distinction people need to be more aware of when interacting with dangerous systems. Managers, at least in my experience, tend to wildly overestimate compliance rates with administrative controls, even ignoring any possibility of deliberate noncompliance.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
rbanffy 1y ago
Last time I went to an MRI, there was a prep room before the MRI machine. There was a stern and visible warning to remove anything metallic from your body before going through the second door. I am fully aware if the pins on my leg were affected, the machine would gladly remove them from my, most likely along with the bone and the leg they are attached to. A lot of fatal accidents are like that - a series of small mistakes nobody notices, each individually harmless, followed by THAT ONE BIG MISTAKE that ends up killing someone (or a lot of people).
- barbazoo 1y ago
  That huge chain though.
barbazoo 1y ago
People with 10kg chains around their neck might not be the kind of people that you can tell no to.
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  Mr. T seems like he'd be quite reasonable if you were discussing medical safety procedures.
  - theshrike79 1y ago
    His chain is gold though and not magnetic =)
    - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
      That's because Mr. T respects MRI safety.
      - chihuahua 1y ago
        Mr. T pities the fool who would walk around with an iron chain.
potato3732842 1y ago
"you need to take off the chain" "nah man, gotta hit my 5k steps wearing 20lb for my fitness goal" "ok, well just don't go in the room" "sure" The kind of interaction that many people will pretty much forget having within the hour.

leptons 1y ago

You would think a simple metal detector to go through before the lock on the MRI room door unlocks would be a requirement. I guess maybe the MRI machine might interfere with metal detecting?

scarier 1y ago
Nope, metal detectors are fairly typical for MRI access. They just generally aren’t set up as an engineering control like you suggest.
- leptons 1y ago
  I'm not sure what "engineering control" means. Just put it in front of the door to the MRI room. Alarm goes off, you do not get to enter, it should be as simple as that.
  - scarier 1y ago
    An engineering control is how your microwave works—if the door isn’t physically closed, it can’t run. The way many (most?) hospitals currently operate is called an administrative control—analogous to a sign on the microwave door telling people not to run the microwave with the door open or open the door when the microwave is on.
    - leptons 1y ago
      But MRI machines can't be turned on and shut off that easily. As someone here explained, it takes up to 15 minutes for the magnet in an MRI to "shut down", and costs $50,000 each time. Why not just control access to the room behind a metal detector? It would be really simple, but effective. I don't think any MRI should be allowed to operate without this basic level of protection.
      - scarier 1y ago
        Sure, an engineering control for MRI room access would be implemented differently--that's just the canonical example that people are familiar with. One possible implementation for MRI access is the airlock method, where the inner access door would only be allowed to unlock with the outer door locked and no metal detected in the space between (also the outer door would be prohibited from unlocking when the inner door is unlocked, except for some kind of inner emergency override that might also be tied to the emergency quench). Literally no one disagrees with you on this, and most (if not all) hospital administrators will say they already do it the way you suggest. I'm pointing out that the actual implementations I'm aware of are often ineffective because they use administrative rather than engineering controls, and this is a critical distinction people need to be more aware of when interacting with dangerous systems. Managers, at least in my experience, tend to wildly overestimate compliance rates with administrative controls, even ignoring any possibility of deliberate noncompliance.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

rbanffy 1y ago

Last time I went to an MRI, there was a prep room before the MRI machine. There was a stern and visible warning to remove anything metallic from your body before going through the second door. I am fully aware if the pins on my leg were affected, the machine would gladly remove them from my, most likely along with the bone and the leg they are attached to. A lot of fatal accidents are like that - a series of small mistakes nobody notices, each individually harmless, followed by THAT ONE BIG MISTAKE that ends up killing someone (or a lot of people).

barbazoo 1y ago
That huge chain though.

barbazoo 1y ago

People with 10kg chains around their neck might not be the kind of people that you can tell no to.

SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
Mr. T seems like he'd be quite reasonable if you were discussing medical safety procedures.
- theshrike79 1y ago
  His chain is gold though and not magnetic =)
  - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
    That's because Mr. T respects MRI safety.
    - chihuahua 1y ago
      Mr. T pities the fool who would walk around with an iron chain.

potato3732842 1y ago

"you need to take off the chain" "nah man, gotta hit my 5k steps wearing 20lb for my fitness goal" "ok, well just don't go in the room" "sure" The kind of interaction that many people will pretty much forget having within the hour.