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Nah. Manjaro sucks because it's just different enough that it breaks a lot of things (like the AUR) but EndeavourOS and CachyOS are just Arch with the edges fil

Nah. Manjaro sucks because it's just different enough that it breaks a lot of things (like the AUR) but EndeavourOS and CachyOS are just Arch with the edges filed off. Nice installers, sensible defaults. If your argument is that filing those edges off is antithetical to Arch, that absolutely is gatekeeping. EndeavourOS and CachyOS don't put any barriers upon the user, what fixes and guides that work for Arch will work for them and ultimately it's not a whole lot more complicated than Ubuntu is but with much better documentation thanks to the Arch wiki. SteamOS also clearly has a place as an immutable Arch, hard to argue that it's been a disappointment or a cause of frustration for users, given the narrative has been an overwhelming want from the gaming community for a desktop version. I guess the frustration comes from, if anything, it's narrow scope. Speaking of Ubuntu, it has atrophed. It used to be that it was popular enough that you could google your problem and someone would have solved it. Try doing that now, you get ancient posts from a decade ago that are no longer relevant. It's not like it's terrible, but I don't see anyone recommend it anymore. Though Mint has it's fans.

constantcrying 1y ago
>EndeavourOS and CachyOS don't put any barriers upon the user, what fixes and guides that work for Arch will work for them The Arch project itself disagrees with that, they will not provide any support or make any assurances about what works on other Arch based distros. The edges being filed of is a substantial difference, which sometimes will matter. The distros (by design) include a lot of defaults, which are assumptions Arch does not make and which it assumes users know about. >SteamOS also clearly has a place as an immutable Arch, hard to argue that it's been a disappointment or a cause of frustration for users, given the narrative has been an overwhelming want from the gaming community for a desktop version. I guess the frustration comes from, if anything, it's narrow scope. I specifically talked about managing Arch yourself. On the Steamdeck you never have to touch a console to make things work. Valve will provide updates for you, no manual intervention needed. It is also well defined and extensively tested hardware, which does not apply to anything else. No user should use SteamOS outside of the Steamdeck, Valve is clear about that. Besides my main point still stands. If you can not install Arch, you lack basic Linux literacy. The moment your Arch based distro based, you can not fix it without these basic skills. You will be disappointed and frustrated and unless you are willing to spend a lot of time learning (after which you could just install Arch anyways) you will never touch Linux again.
- rabid-zubat 1y ago
  From all things far from truth, this is the farthest.
- scheeseman486 1y ago
  I specifically said fixes and guides, Arch deriviatives usually have their own active support communities to deal with user support. What your describing also counts for, say, Mint or literally any *-based distro. Nonetheless the Arch wiki is still a useful rescource for solving problems, indeed that was so even when I was using Ubuntu which incenidentlally is how I ended up trying Arch in the first place; I used Arch's resources to fix Ubuntu's problems more than Ubuntu's resources, why not give it a shot? But I bounced off vanilla Arch's install process and painstaking setup. Tried Manjaro, got hit by successive boot breaking bugs, then found EndeavourOS and discovered they hey, Arch doesn't need to be a pain in the ass or a broken piece of shit. Arch can be and can continue to be Arch, anything based on it can be something else but also sort of Arch and that's fine and maybe even really good.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    You are still completely ignoring my point. You, presumably, are not new to Linux. You know how to fix your system. The users CachyOS is targeting do not. They will run into walls, get frustrated and leave. I really couldn't care less that someone like you uses some Arch derivative, because they don't want to spend the 3 hours doing the setup themselves. Just FYI,the Arch setup is as easy as setting up e.g. Debian, unless you are terminally afraid of using terminal UIs.
    - scheeseman486 1y ago
      From a usability perspective all the popular desktop Linux distros are barely different from each other, the things I do and the way I did them in Arch were basically the same things I was doing in Ubuntu, only with pacman instead of apt. Any operating system that requires the user actively maintain it's system stack will, at some point, likely require diving into a terminal and messing with configuration files. The people who run into that wall and bounce off of it wouldn't be better served by Ubuntu, but an immutable OS. Fedora Silverblue, Bazzite et al. Like the Steam Deck, too; though you're wrong about the OS's scope for hardware compatibility. SteamOS supports the Legion Go S officially, but also contains specific patches to support the ROG Ally which they have no affiliation with. Their intent for SteamOS isn't for it to stay on Valve hardware forever.
imzadi 1y ago
> Speaking of Ubuntu, it has atrophed. It used to be that it was popular enough that you could google your problem and someone would have solved it. Try doing that now, you get ancient posts from a decade ago that are no longer relevant. It's not like it's terrible, but I don't see anyone recommend it anymore. Though Mint has it's fans. I think this is largely because most of Ubuntu support is through StackExchange and they tend to moderate the usefulness out of it. Every new issue is closed as being a duplicate, even when the linked "duplicate" is years old and not even resolved.
- CrackerNews 1y ago
  Ubuntu went through multiple changes in the software stack that those answers can be outdated and inapplicable.
  - hedora 1y ago
    It’s also ridiculously unstable. The “multiple months to backport a 1 line zfs corruption fix” incident was the last straw for me, but they also did stuff like break syslog and out of the box dns resolution months into LTS releases.
specproc 1y ago
I've been mucking around with a friend's old laptop this week and have gone through the install process for both EndeavourOS and Windows 11. I've been blown away by how much easier Linux (and Arch-based Linux to boot) has become compared to Windows. With EndeavourOS, I'm asked a few basic questions about my keyboard, language, timezone, DE and where I want it put. With Windows, I'm clicking through endless pages asking it not to do a whole load of hostile crap, before having to spend the next hour or so carefully removing bloat and checking settings. Same playing with my nephew yesterday. He's 8 and has just got his first laptop (also Win 11). He complained about how confusing it is, and I'm not surprised because his screen is full of junk. The poor kid had a stock ticker on his bar! EndeavourOS just works out of the box and gives a simple, clean starting point to build on. I was amazed by how much more usable a supposedly beardy distribution is than the normie offering.

constantcrying 1y ago

>EndeavourOS and CachyOS don't put any barriers upon the user, what fixes and guides that work for Arch will work for them The Arch project itself disagrees with that, they will not provide any support or make any assurances about what works on other Arch based distros. The edges being filed of is a substantial difference, which sometimes will matter. The distros (by design) include a lot of defaults, which are assumptions Arch does not make and which it assumes users know about. >SteamOS also clearly has a place as an immutable Arch, hard to argue that it's been a disappointment or a cause of frustration for users, given the narrative has been an overwhelming want from the gaming community for a desktop version. I guess the frustration comes from, if anything, it's narrow scope. I specifically talked about managing Arch yourself. On the Steamdeck you never have to touch a console to make things work. Valve will provide updates for you, no manual intervention needed. It is also well defined and extensively tested hardware, which does not apply to anything else. No user should use SteamOS outside of the Steamdeck, Valve is clear about that. Besides my main point still stands. If you can not install Arch, you lack basic Linux literacy. The moment your Arch based distro based, you can not fix it without these basic skills. You will be disappointed and frustrated and unless you are willing to spend a lot of time learning (after which you could just install Arch anyways) you will never touch Linux again.

rabid-zubat 1y ago
From all things far from truth, this is the farthest.
scheeseman486 1y ago
I specifically said fixes and guides, Arch deriviatives usually have their own active support communities to deal with user support. What your describing also counts for, say, Mint or literally any *-based distro. Nonetheless the Arch wiki is still a useful rescource for solving problems, indeed that was so even when I was using Ubuntu which incenidentlally is how I ended up trying Arch in the first place; I used Arch's resources to fix Ubuntu's problems more than Ubuntu's resources, why not give it a shot? But I bounced off vanilla Arch's install process and painstaking setup. Tried Manjaro, got hit by successive boot breaking bugs, then found EndeavourOS and discovered they hey, Arch doesn't need to be a pain in the ass or a broken piece of shit. Arch can be and can continue to be Arch, anything based on it can be something else but also sort of Arch and that's fine and maybe even really good.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  You are still completely ignoring my point. You, presumably, are not new to Linux. You know how to fix your system. The users CachyOS is targeting do not. They will run into walls, get frustrated and leave. I really couldn't care less that someone like you uses some Arch derivative, because they don't want to spend the 3 hours doing the setup themselves. Just FYI,the Arch setup is as easy as setting up e.g. Debian, unless you are terminally afraid of using terminal UIs.
  - scheeseman486 1y ago
    From a usability perspective all the popular desktop Linux distros are barely different from each other, the things I do and the way I did them in Arch were basically the same things I was doing in Ubuntu, only with pacman instead of apt. Any operating system that requires the user actively maintain it's system stack will, at some point, likely require diving into a terminal and messing with configuration files. The people who run into that wall and bounce off of it wouldn't be better served by Ubuntu, but an immutable OS. Fedora Silverblue, Bazzite et al. Like the Steam Deck, too; though you're wrong about the OS's scope for hardware compatibility. SteamOS supports the Legion Go S officially, but also contains specific patches to support the ROG Ally which they have no affiliation with. Their intent for SteamOS isn't for it to stay on Valve hardware forever.

imzadi 1y ago

> Speaking of Ubuntu, it has atrophed. It used to be that it was popular enough that you could google your problem and someone would have solved it. Try doing that now, you get ancient posts from a decade ago that are no longer relevant. It's not like it's terrible, but I don't see anyone recommend it anymore. Though Mint has it's fans. I think this is largely because most of Ubuntu support is through StackExchange and they tend to moderate the usefulness out of it. Every new issue is closed as being a duplicate, even when the linked "duplicate" is years old and not even resolved.

CrackerNews 1y ago
Ubuntu went through multiple changes in the software stack that those answers can be outdated and inapplicable.
- hedora 1y ago
  It’s also ridiculously unstable. The “multiple months to backport a 1 line zfs corruption fix” incident was the last straw for me, but they also did stuff like break syslog and out of the box dns resolution months into LTS releases.

specproc 1y ago

I've been mucking around with a friend's old laptop this week and have gone through the install process for both EndeavourOS and Windows 11. I've been blown away by how much easier Linux (and Arch-based Linux to boot) has become compared to Windows. With EndeavourOS, I'm asked a few basic questions about my keyboard, language, timezone, DE and where I want it put. With Windows, I'm clicking through endless pages asking it not to do a whole load of hostile crap, before having to spend the next hour or so carefully removing bloat and checking settings. Same playing with my nephew yesterday. He's 8 and has just got his first laptop (also Win 11). He complained about how confusing it is, and I'm not surprised because his screen is full of junk. The poor kid had a stock ticker on his bar! EndeavourOS just works out of the box and gives a simple, clean starting point to build on. I was amazed by how much more usable a supposedly beardy distribution is than the normie offering.