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Weakness and power does not count populations, and especially not population dispersed. E.g A colonial power, like England that had a population of 30 million

by batista 14y ago

Weakness and power does not count populations, and especially not population dispersed. E.g A colonial power, like England that had a population of 30 million people, ruled colonies of 1 billion (and more) people 7-8 decades ago. And it's not Israel vs every muslim country, it's mostly Israel vs the palestinians. Check any map of Palestinian territories, 1930 to present, to see which entity has more power. Or check a tally of casualties on both sides. That said, it's not "racist hate propaganda" that left wing idealists accept. That's how Israel describes it (understandably). What they do accept is that other people can be right to protest against Israel, and that that does not automatically means "antisemitism" in the historical sense. Believe it or not, the incredible harm (genocide) done by the Nazi's to jews, does not automatically translate to modern day Israel being on the right against it's neighbours, or generally in any possible conflict.

berntb 14y ago
You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. Start with e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Arab_newspapers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_cen... Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. That were a larger number than the Palestinians, which happened connected to a civil war. And so on.
- batista 14y ago
  >You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. No, I deny: 1) that this is the kind of "antisemitism hate propaganda" that "left wing idealists" (in the western world) embrace. 2) That this "antisemitism hate propaganda" is even prevalent or has any consequence in the Muslim world. I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. Do you know how many people in the Bible Belt believe similar things? >Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. Well, I know about that. I'm from Europe, we like History there. Doesn't have to do with present day muslim-israel relation though. Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries? FWIW, the majority of jews persecution has happened by Europeans, by far. Including the Nazi's of course. Muslim states don't even come close, and even then they don't do it for religious reasons, but for political ones (ie they are not against jewism but against the politics of the state of Israel). (Oh, and another tibbit: pro WW-II, the US was also full of anti-Semitism propaganda).
  - berntb 14y ago
    Seriously, you repeatedly contradict already given Wikipedia links. Go discuss a subject you have less emotional connections to. >> I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. From the pages I linked: In 2008 A Pew Research Center survey found that negative views concerning Jews were most common in the three predominantly Arab nations polled, with 97% of Lebanese having unfavorable opinion of Jews, 95% in Egypt and 96% in Jordan.[60] You will find quite a large percentage with these opinions among immigrant Moslems in any Western country too. From the link I POSTED: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#Islamic_antisemitism_in_Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#Islamic_... >>Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. It is hard to act on hatred against people you threw out from your country long ago... :-) >>Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries? Obviously I know more than you... or at least I'm honest and can read. Also in the page I LINKED re the 19th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Nineteenth_century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jaffa (1876), Jerusalem (1847, 1870 and 1895), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), and Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891).
    - batista 14y ago
      >Seriously, you repeatedly contradict already given Wikipedia links. Seriously, I doubt I contradict them, without actual examples. I speak from experience AND from readings on the matter. That said, "Wikipedia links" are not exactly scholarly sources of history, especially without interpretation and understanding of what they mention. Better open some books. E.g about: "In 2008 A Pew Research Center survey found that negative views concerning Jews were most common in the three predominantly Arab nations polled, with 97% of Lebanese having unfavorable opinion of Jews, 95% in Egypt and 96% in Jordan.[60]" So what? Methodology of the research? Funding of the research? Political views of the researches themselves (e.g some institute trying to validate western intervention in the area)? This doesn't sound very impartial: "The Pew Global Attitudes Project is a series of worldwide public-opinion surveys and reports aimed at understanding worldwide attitudes on various issues. The Project is chaired by former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright". Plus, are the "negative views concerning jews" the same as the antisemitism propaganda (e.g "Jews, the people, are evil"), or like a political statement ("we hate what jews in Israel are doing"). In the cold war, a majority of Americans could say in a poll that they "hate Russians", but I wouldn't take that to mean that they hate russian people as such. Make those questions, and don't assume everything written on the web or presented by some "impartial source" is the whole of the truth. >Obviously I know more than you... or at least I'm honest and can read. Also in the page I LINKED re the 19th century: You must have missed the part in the article that said: "Arab antisemitism is believed to have expanded since the 19th century. (...) despite its restrictive nature, dhimmi status also afforded the "People of the Book" relative security against persecution and welfare most of the time—a protection that was missing for non-Christians in most of Europe until the institutionalization of equality under a secular idea of citizenship after the French Revolution—and allowed them to enjoy their respective religious laws and ways of life.". Or: "For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide." Long story short: they had it better in the muslim countries than in Europe, until it started getting worse since the 19th century. As for the pogroms you list, you can find some everywhere. That doesn't mean it was the prevalent practice. Note for example the Damascus affair, which you list as an example of "muslim persecution": """The Damascus affair was an accusation of ritual murder and a blood libel against Jews in Damascus in 1840. On February 5, 1840, Franciscan Capuchin friar Father Thomas and his Greek servant were reported missing, never to be seen again. The Turkish governor and the French consul Ratti-Menton believed accusations of ritual murder and blood libel, as the alleged murder occurred before the Jewish Passover.""" Notice how the victims were Christians? Noticed how Damascus had a large christian population? Wondered if they are those that initiated the pogrom? Noticed how the Turkish governor AND the French consul believed the accusations?

by batista 14y ago

berntb 14y ago

You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. Start with e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Arab_newspapers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_cen... Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. That were a larger number than the Palestinians, which happened connected to a civil war. And so on.

batista 14y ago
>You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. No, I deny: 1) that this is the kind of "antisemitism hate propaganda" that "left wing idealists" (in the western world) embrace. 2) That this "antisemitism hate propaganda" is even prevalent or has any consequence in the Muslim world. I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. Do you know how many people in the Bible Belt believe similar things? >Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. Well, I know about that. I'm from Europe, we like History there. Doesn't have to do with present day muslim-israel relation though. Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries? FWIW, the majority of jews persecution has happened by Europeans, by far. Including the Nazi's of course. Muslim states don't even come close, and even then they don't do it for religious reasons, but for political ones (ie they are not against jewism but against the politics of the state of Israel). (Oh, and another tibbit: pro WW-II, the US was also full of anti-Semitism propaganda).
- berntb 14y ago
  Seriously, you repeatedly contradict already given Wikipedia links. Go discuss a subject you have less emotional connections to. >> I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. From the pages I linked: In 2008 A Pew Research Center survey found that negative views concerning Jews were most common in the three predominantly Arab nations polled, with 97% of Lebanese having unfavorable opinion of Jews, 95% in Egypt and 96% in Jordan.[60] You will find quite a large percentage with these opinions among immigrant Moslems in any Western country too. From the link I POSTED: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#Islamic_antisemitism_in_Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#Islamic_... >>Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. It is hard to act on hatred against people you threw out from your country long ago... :-) >>Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries? Obviously I know more than you... or at least I'm honest and can read. Also in the page I LINKED re the 19th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Nineteenth_century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jaffa (1876), Jerusalem (1847, 1870 and 1895), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), and Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891).
  - batista 14y ago
    >Seriously, you repeatedly contradict already given Wikipedia links. Seriously, I doubt I contradict them, without actual examples. I speak from experience AND from readings on the matter. That said, "Wikipedia links" are not exactly scholarly sources of history, especially without interpretation and understanding of what they mention. Better open some books. E.g about: "In 2008 A Pew Research Center survey found that negative views concerning Jews were most common in the three predominantly Arab nations polled, with 97% of Lebanese having unfavorable opinion of Jews, 95% in Egypt and 96% in Jordan.[60]" So what? Methodology of the research? Funding of the research? Political views of the researches themselves (e.g some institute trying to validate western intervention in the area)? This doesn't sound very impartial: "The Pew Global Attitudes Project is a series of worldwide public-opinion surveys and reports aimed at understanding worldwide attitudes on various issues. The Project is chaired by former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright". Plus, are the "negative views concerning jews" the same as the antisemitism propaganda (e.g "Jews, the people, are evil"), or like a political statement ("we hate what jews in Israel are doing"). In the cold war, a majority of Americans could say in a poll that they "hate Russians", but I wouldn't take that to mean that they hate russian people as such. Make those questions, and don't assume everything written on the web or presented by some "impartial source" is the whole of the truth. >Obviously I know more than you... or at least I'm honest and can read. Also in the page I LINKED re the 19th century: You must have missed the part in the article that said: "Arab antisemitism is believed to have expanded since the 19th century. (...) despite its restrictive nature, dhimmi status also afforded the "People of the Book" relative security against persecution and welfare most of the time—a protection that was missing for non-Christians in most of Europe until the institutionalization of equality under a secular idea of citizenship after the French Revolution—and allowed them to enjoy their respective religious laws and ways of life.". Or: "For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide." Long story short: they had it better in the muslim countries than in Europe, until it started getting worse since the 19th century. As for the pogroms you list, you can find some everywhere. That doesn't mean it was the prevalent practice. Note for example the Damascus affair, which you list as an example of "muslim persecution": """The Damascus affair was an accusation of ritual murder and a blood libel against Jews in Damascus in 1840. On February 5, 1840, Franciscan Capuchin friar Father Thomas and his Greek servant were reported missing, never to be seen again. The Turkish governor and the French consul Ratti-Menton believed accusations of ritual murder and blood libel, as the alleged murder occurred before the Jewish Passover.""" Notice how the victims were Christians? Noticed how Damascus had a large christian population? Wondered if they are those that initiated the pogrom? Noticed how the Turkish governor AND the French consul believed the accusations?