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That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. Like if they want to go to a certain office in a building: My "instructions" would

That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. Like if they want to go to a certain office in a building: My "instructions" would be to go to department foo, room A5.303 (made up number). Their instructions are something like "in that red brick building, take the elevator to 5th floor, turn left and then again left into the hallway, second door on the right side". If they navigate UI the same way, then of course every element that is moved slightly to a new place or grouped differently will cause their mental model of how things work to collapse.

moritzwarhier 1y ago
It's also how IT professionals navigate software interfaces! I'm amused by the amount of flak you are getting here. Being fast and efficient with any piece of UI of course means to replace navigation and discovery with memory and intuition, at least in part! Not just keyboard shortcuts, also the placement of UI elements, latencies, learning quirky behaviors... being fast with software means not having to discover features. Similar to labeled controls on a physical device, just in a simulacrum.
Xlr8head 1y ago
This is maybe down to using the same cognitive pathways to navigate SW that we use to navigate the real world: way points en route to a destination. Whereas those with more understanding of the system can deploy other methods that are a more direct fit to that structure. The problem is, then, that if you change the terrain (e.g. new os) you also need to change the map/route in the heads of all those users without system knowledge. Even some of those with system knowledge might STILL preferentially deploy their innate navigation cognition.
potato3732842 1y ago
>That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. This "treat everything like a ludicrously complex black box that almost nobody can understand" for any given subject are the lowest common denominator that laws get written to.
StopDisinfo910 1y ago
Your equivalence seems widely inaccurate to me. I too sometimes have a mental model which is "red building, third floor, left then left" because that’s spatial memory. A random room number tells you absolutely nothing about where you actually have to go. I can (and sometimes do) remember one and will use one if it’s all I have but that’s just random information totally different from actual direction. I think your comment actually hits the heart of the issue. Most software developers I have met have this kind of disdain for their users familiarity and ability and act like they are above that. Most confuse their own learned familiarity when they were young and could tinker with some kind of superior ability. Well, just go read any post here about systemd, the syntax of Ocaml, or the new ux of any popular framework and you will see that we are all the same. Accepting change takes time, especially if people had no desire for the change. Most people don’t care about their computers. They are for them a necessary impediment in the way of doing what they want to do. That’s why they dislike change: it looks like work for no upside. A major part of change management is explaining to people where the upsides are for them, helping them operating in the new environment and giving them time to process.
- chithanh 1y ago
  > I think your comment actually hits the heart of the issue. Most software developers I have met have this kind of disdain for their users familiarity and ability and act like they are above that. That is not what I meant. I don't say those users are worse for it, rather that user interfaces of course need to accommodate such approaches. Such as placing a notice at the old location which directs users to the new location (like when a brick-and-mortar-store moves). Also when performing tasks routinely, of course I have muscle memory and will get slightly irritated when the newest function absorbed into systemd does things differently than the thing which it replaced. I have no desire for or against systemd, but I understand that this is how the world revolves and that one has get along with the times. > Most confuse their own learned familiarity when they were young and could tinker with some kind of superior ability. It is just willingness to learn. How you learn and how fast you learn is of course age dependent, but the attitude towards learning new things and breaking out of routine is what matters more.
- hnbad 1y ago

moritzwarhier 1y ago

It's also how IT professionals navigate software interfaces! I'm amused by the amount of flak you are getting here. Being fast and efficient with any piece of UI of course means to replace navigation and discovery with memory and intuition, at least in part! Not just keyboard shortcuts, also the placement of UI elements, latencies, learning quirky behaviors... being fast with software means not having to discover features. Similar to labeled controls on a physical device, just in a simulacrum.

Xlr8head 1y ago

This is maybe down to using the same cognitive pathways to navigate SW that we use to navigate the real world: way points en route to a destination. Whereas those with more understanding of the system can deploy other methods that are a more direct fit to that structure. The problem is, then, that if you change the terrain (e.g. new os) you also need to change the map/route in the heads of all those users without system knowledge. Even some of those with system knowledge might STILL preferentially deploy their innate navigation cognition.

potato3732842 1y ago

>That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. This "treat everything like a ludicrously complex black box that almost nobody can understand" for any given subject are the lowest common denominator that laws get written to.

StopDisinfo910 1y ago

Your equivalence seems widely inaccurate to me. I too sometimes have a mental model which is "red building, third floor, left then left" because that’s spatial memory. A random room number tells you absolutely nothing about where you actually have to go. I can (and sometimes do) remember one and will use one if it’s all I have but that’s just random information totally different from actual direction. I think your comment actually hits the heart of the issue. Most software developers I have met have this kind of disdain for their users familiarity and ability and act like they are above that. Most confuse their own learned familiarity when they were young and could tinker with some kind of superior ability. Well, just go read any post here about systemd, the syntax of Ocaml, or the new ux of any popular framework and you will see that we are all the same. Accepting change takes time, especially if people had no desire for the change. Most people don’t care about their computers. They are for them a necessary impediment in the way of doing what they want to do. That’s why they dislike change: it looks like work for no upside. A major part of change management is explaining to people where the upsides are for them, helping them operating in the new environment and giving them time to process.

chithanh 1y ago
> I think your comment actually hits the heart of the issue. Most software developers I have met have this kind of disdain for their users familiarity and ability and act like they are above that. That is not what I meant. I don't say those users are worse for it, rather that user interfaces of course need to accommodate such approaches. Such as placing a notice at the old location which directs users to the new location (like when a brick-and-mortar-store moves). Also when performing tasks routinely, of course I have muscle memory and will get slightly irritated when the newest function absorbed into systemd does things differently than the thing which it replaced. I have no desire for or against systemd, but I understand that this is how the world revolves and that one has get along with the times. > Most confuse their own learned familiarity when they were young and could tinker with some kind of superior ability. It is just willingness to learn. How you learn and how fast you learn is of course age dependent, but the attitude towards learning new things and breaking out of routine is what matters more.
hnbad 1y ago