7 ms·

Oh my god. :-) Off the top of my head... 1. As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A univ

by berntb 14y ago

Oh my god. :-) Off the top of my head... 1. As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A universal phenomenon in those countries -- and yes, using external enemies is not unique to dictators.) Just see how Iran motivates anything with attacks against Israel. The left wingers must KNOW what they are supporting! 2. Isn't it racism to accept so low standards for [mainly ethnic] groups and assume them to be unable to be responsible for their actions?! 3. This tolerance (of e.g. antisemitism) goes for Muslims living in Western Europe too, which hardly have these excuses. So it isn't coherent. 4. Why do the left accept the arguments and world view (re Israel), when they at the same time argues it comes from a bunch of illiterates that aren't responsible for their actions/opinions? 5. Should people with low education get lower punishments for crimes? Should they get no punishment if they can't read and don't understand the law? 6. Afaik, e.g. Iran has a quite large part educated of their population. [Also, that was a high culture thousands of years before my ancestors had writing.] Etc, etc, etc. (Still not arguing, fascinated. I have no clue what the Hell political believers on all sides are smoking -- I just want to live in a country without any of them.)

lmm 14y ago
>As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A universal phenomenon in those countries -- and yes, using external enemies is not unique to dictators.) Just see how Iran motivates anything with attacks against Israel. Dictators do use it, but it works because the population supports it. The people really do hate Israel and the Jews. >2. Isn't it racism to accept so low standards for [mainly ethnic] groups and assume them to be unable to be responsible for their actions?! Eh. Maybe. I suspect those who were bothered by this would argue that it's not about race, it's about socioeconomic status. That those of lower socioeconomic status need/deserve help that the rest of us don't is pretty much the core thesis of the left. >3. This tolerance (of e.g. antisemitism) goes for Muslims living in Western Europe too, which hardly have these excuses. Even in western europe, you're largely talking about a ghettoized underclass. There's not a lot of tolerance of antisemitism from e.g. serious academics (muslim or otherwise). The nouveau riche sometimes get away with it, but again they're being looked on with pity by the left, and it's assumed they got those attitudes in their early days. >4. Why do the left accept the arguments and world view (re Israel), when they at the same time argues it comes from a bunch of illiterates that aren't responsible for their actions/opinions? I don't think you see leftists following the same Jewish conspiracy theories as Iranian peasants. Many on the left do believe Israel shouldn't exist in its current form, simply because we don't think it was right for the UN to arbitrarily confiscate the land of a bunch of (largely) innocent Palestinians. >5. Should people with low education get lower punishments for crimes? Should they get no punishment if they can't read and don't understand the law? Speaking for myself, yes that should be taken into account. If you're asking about the orthodoxy, I think the left would object to the notion that the justice system should have anything to do with punishment; its goals should be the prevention of crime, which is served a little bit by deterrence, and much more by reform. If you're thinking about it in terms of preventing re-offending, an uneducated person probably needs to take more time before they're ready to re-enter society. Not that the current prison system is good at helping with that. >6. Afaik, e.g. Iran has a quite large part educated of their population. Not really AIUI. There's small a university-educated middle class in the capital, from whom we hear a disproportionate amount in the media because they're the ones who speak English. And these people are quite possibly less anti-semitic than the general population. Certainly the left would expect them to be.
- berntb 14y ago
  Thanks for discussing this. I have too little time now, sadly. >>Dictators do use [hate propaganda against external enemies], but it works because the population supports it. The people really do hate Israel and the Jews. True afaik, but it could never be the same scale without the official sanctions and official media. Otherwise it would just be like racism against e.g. blacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world I'm sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but gigantic double standards. An example before I run: >>Many on the left do believe Israel shouldn't exist in its current form, simply because we don't think it was right for the UN to arbitrarily confiscate the land of a bunch of (largely) innocent Palestinians. I don't know enough about the arguments re Palestine. I'll just note that there were lots of area changes after the world wars. Palestine was hardly the worst (at a minimum, Karelia should be worse) -- but it is the only area where the subject is still problematic (well, there are some Japanese islands). The reason that little area is still a big question is mainly because the Arab states refused to integrate the refugees of the civil war and destroy their lives. So the Palestinian refugees still remembers and hates. Why have I never seen any criticism from the left of the Arab states for that?! Agh, idealists... I seriously think they just hate everything that is supported by USA. (I don't know about other countries, but my local left wingers have never supported a democracy against a junta controlled place...)
- berntb 14y ago
  A few days too late, sigh. If I had time then, I would have written this... I really think the hypothesis "We hate everything the US do and all their close friends" fits better as an explanation for the left's double standards. (Even without considering the venom against equally uneducated right wing extremist idiots.) Disclaimer -- I only know Sweden well, but similar positions are seen also in English. Here the media are very left leaning and tend to straight out censor pro-Israeli news and negative information about Palestinians. Swedish media never mentioned e.g. Pallywood and the same goes for news about torture between Palestinian groups. UN's Ban's recent Iran criticism in Teheran was mangled in the translation(!) -- that is quite typical. And so on. It is just hard to not see my local left wingers as propagandists in this question. Often even filled with hate. (Swedish media is why I follow this subject, I grew up believing them -- and I'm totally disgusted by now. The Mid East is a good test of Swedish media.) >>I think the left would object to the notion that the justice system should have anything to do with punishment; its goals should be the prevention of crime, which is served a little bit by deterrence, and much more by reform. I know all about this -- Sweden. These are the questions that are never answered: The left seriously argue against both the existence of game theory and the existence of uncurable psychopaths? Is the left really aware of that many crime victims gets their lives destroyed?

by berntb 14y ago

lmm 14y ago

>As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A universal phenomenon in those countries -- and yes, using external enemies is not unique to dictators.) Just see how Iran motivates anything with attacks against Israel. Dictators do use it, but it works because the population supports it. The people really do hate Israel and the Jews. >2. Isn't it racism to accept so low standards for [mainly ethnic] groups and assume them to be unable to be responsible for their actions?! Eh. Maybe. I suspect those who were bothered by this would argue that it's not about race, it's about socioeconomic status. That those of lower socioeconomic status need/deserve help that the rest of us don't is pretty much the core thesis of the left. >3. This tolerance (of e.g. antisemitism) goes for Muslims living in Western Europe too, which hardly have these excuses. Even in western europe, you're largely talking about a ghettoized underclass. There's not a lot of tolerance of antisemitism from e.g. serious academics (muslim or otherwise). The nouveau riche sometimes get away with it, but again they're being looked on with pity by the left, and it's assumed they got those attitudes in their early days. >4. Why do the left accept the arguments and world view (re Israel), when they at the same time argues it comes from a bunch of illiterates that aren't responsible for their actions/opinions? I don't think you see leftists following the same Jewish conspiracy theories as Iranian peasants. Many on the left do believe Israel shouldn't exist in its current form, simply because we don't think it was right for the UN to arbitrarily confiscate the land of a bunch of (largely) innocent Palestinians. >5. Should people with low education get lower punishments for crimes? Should they get no punishment if they can't read and don't understand the law? Speaking for myself, yes that should be taken into account. If you're asking about the orthodoxy, I think the left would object to the notion that the justice system should have anything to do with punishment; its goals should be the prevention of crime, which is served a little bit by deterrence, and much more by reform. If you're thinking about it in terms of preventing re-offending, an uneducated person probably needs to take more time before they're ready to re-enter society. Not that the current prison system is good at helping with that. >6. Afaik, e.g. Iran has a quite large part educated of their population. Not really AIUI. There's small a university-educated middle class in the capital, from whom we hear a disproportionate amount in the media because they're the ones who speak English. And these people are quite possibly less anti-semitic than the general population. Certainly the left would expect them to be.

berntb 14y ago
Thanks for discussing this. I have too little time now, sadly. >>Dictators do use [hate propaganda against external enemies], but it works because the population supports it. The people really do hate Israel and the Jews. True afaik, but it could never be the same scale without the official sanctions and official media. Otherwise it would just be like racism against e.g. blacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Arab_world I'm sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but gigantic double standards. An example before I run: >>Many on the left do believe Israel shouldn't exist in its current form, simply because we don't think it was right for the UN to arbitrarily confiscate the land of a bunch of (largely) innocent Palestinians. I don't know enough about the arguments re Palestine. I'll just note that there were lots of area changes after the world wars. Palestine was hardly the worst (at a minimum, Karelia should be worse) -- but it is the only area where the subject is still problematic (well, there are some Japanese islands). The reason that little area is still a big question is mainly because the Arab states refused to integrate the refugees of the civil war and destroy their lives. So the Palestinian refugees still remembers and hates. Why have I never seen any criticism from the left of the Arab states for that?! Agh, idealists... I seriously think they just hate everything that is supported by USA. (I don't know about other countries, but my local left wingers have never supported a democracy against a junta controlled place...)
berntb 14y ago
A few days too late, sigh. If I had time then, I would have written this... I really think the hypothesis "We hate everything the US do and all their close friends" fits better as an explanation for the left's double standards. (Even without considering the venom against equally uneducated right wing extremist idiots.) Disclaimer -- I only know Sweden well, but similar positions are seen also in English. Here the media are very left leaning and tend to straight out censor pro-Israeli news and negative information about Palestinians. Swedish media never mentioned e.g. Pallywood and the same goes for news about torture between Palestinian groups. UN's Ban's recent Iran criticism in Teheran was mangled in the translation(!) -- that is quite typical. And so on. It is just hard to not see my local left wingers as propagandists in this question. Often even filled with hate. (Swedish media is why I follow this subject, I grew up believing them -- and I'm totally disgusted by now. The Mid East is a good test of Swedish media.) >>I think the left would object to the notion that the justice system should have anything to do with punishment; its goals should be the prevention of crime, which is served a little bit by deterrence, and much more by reform. I know all about this -- Sweden. These are the questions that are never answered: The left seriously argue against both the existence of game theory and the existence of uncurable psychopaths? Is the left really aware of that many crime victims gets their lives destroyed?