4 ms·

Slow motion is a workaround for the bad motion quality that results from the extremely low frame rate of 24 fps. If we standardized on something less bad, e.g.

by mrob 1y ago

Slow motion is a workaround for the bad motion quality that results from the extremely low frame rate of 24 fps. If we standardized on something less bad, e.g. 120 fps, it wouldn't be necessary. With modern digital cameras and efficient LED lighting this won't be unreasonably expensive.

pjc50 1y ago
Plenty of people are still unhappy with any change from the 24fps standard.
- mrob 1y ago
  I don't understand it at all. As I child, I once visited Futuroscope[0] in France, a kind of cinema theme park. It has many different projection systems, e.g. 3D, dome screen, ultra-wide screen. The one that impressed me most was the Showscan[1]. This is analog film running at 60fps. I liked it so much I watched both Showscan movies they were showing twice. 60fps is by no means high frame rate, but even that was an enormous improvement over 24fps. I'm not aware of any movies shot in non-interleaved 120fps (AFAIK all the movies advertised as "120fps" are 2*60fps stereoscopic with the frames interleaved between the eyes). Considering how much better games look in high frame rate compared to 60fps I'd love to see a non-interleaved 120fps movie. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuroscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuroscope [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showscan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showscan
  - Joeboy 1y ago
    > I'm not aware of any movies shot in non-interleaved 120fps I think Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk? Although I'm not sure if you can actually watch it at 120fps.
    - mrob 1y ago
      I thought that was 2 * 60fps stereoscopic (which technically is 120fps so there's no false advertising, just not in the same way as Showscan is 60fps). I'm also not aware of any way to watch it in 2 * 60fps if you missed the original showings.
      - Joeboy 1y ago
        Maybe you know something I don't, but as far as I can tell it was shot on Sony F65s running at 120fps.
        mrob 1y ago
        Looks like I was mistaken and a non-interleaved 120fps version exists. Disappointing that there's apparently no way to actually watch it.
    - Mashimo 1y ago
      Seems like you can get it in 120 fps 2D, from Wikipedia: > To accommodate the film's wide release, various additional versions of the film were created.[3] They include 120 fps in 2D and 60 fps in 3D as well as today's current standard of 24 fps. The film also received a Dolby Cinema release, with two high dynamic range versions that can accommodate 2D and 3D, with up to 120 fps in 2K resolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Lynn%27s_Long_Halftime_Walk_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Lynn%27s_Long_Halftime_W...
      - Dromanx 1y ago
        [dead]
perching_aix 1y ago
I'm not sure about that. The few examples of high framerate movies I saw, it made the fact that they are on a set and that they're acting very obvious. It felt like watching a theater play. The micromovements, now visible, gave it all away. Obviously you can make 60+ FPS cinematography work well, games do it all the time. But whether that's practical in live action, I'm not sure. I certainly haven't seen an example that didn't make me cringe yet. Even in non-cinema settings, such as on YouTube, the presentation style usually needs adjusting a bit. Speaking of, I do wish that all the cinematography-focused content creators on YouTube stopped using 24 and 30 FPS out of vanity though at least... Though it would help if YouTube rolled out support for HFR (120+ fps) as well, so that those who include 24p movie snippets don't need to compromise.
mezentius 1y ago
The exact number “24” may be a standard for historical reasons, but a frame rate AROUND 24 is not an arbitrary standard. Higher frame rates require more light so that the image is properly exposed for the 1/(2x frame rate) of a second (assuming a 180-degree shutter angle) that the shutter is open. Doubling the frame rate requires doubling the amount of incident light, so going to 120 fps from 24 requires ~5x more light for a given ISO rating and aperture. If you think about how light falls off in proportion to the square of its distance from the source—and that generally actors don’t stand in one place, but move through large spaces where they must appear to be lit evenly—you start to see that this is not just a question of “efficient LED lighting.” Shooting at high frame rates requires an enormous amount of light that cannot easily (read: cheaply, quickly, without higher expenses) be brought to bear in a normal production outside of controlled studio conditions.
- mrob 1y ago
  High-CRI LED lighting is about ten times as efficient as the old film-making standard of incandescent lighting. Inverse square law affects incandescent lighting in exactly the same way, but they still managed to shoot indoor scenes at 24fps using it. Switching incandescent lighting for LED, keeping light locations and power use the same, will make every point about 10 times brighter than it was before. Therefore LED lighting is enough to shoot at about 240fps.
  - mezentius 1y ago
    I’m guessing you haven’t worked in the film business, as ‘more efficient’ is not the same as ‘brighter’ in real-world conditions on a film set. LED lighting brings efficiencies in power use, weight, and heat, but nowhere near the quoted figure in terms of raw output due to optical loss, color control, diffusion, among other things. Unless you are James Cameron shooting Avatar III on a soundstage with (close to) a blank-cheque from the studio, you are still limited in terms of space (the constraints of the location given the size of the light and its supporting stand), time (the time to set up and adjust each light properly, including last-minute adjustments), labor (someone’s got to plug all that in, run the cables, etc.), and cost/availability (you don’t always get the lights you want for a given budget). Beyond that, you’re also considering aperture and ISO from a creative standpoint; maybe you don’t want to shoot wide open for reasons of image control, and so you may spend your lumen budget on ensuring that a particular scene can be exposed at, say, f/5.6 at ISO 100. Or you may want to spend your lumens on lens filtration, which produces a specific effect but further cuts down the incident light. In short, no, you do not have 10x light available to spend on frame rate, and for any marginal gains in raw output, most cinematographers are thinking about what creative choices it opens up for the film; I would never burn additional lumens to shoot at 120fps just for the sake of A/V fanboys on the internet, unless the scene requires slow-motion or high-speed capture for postproduction reasons. Technical choices in this industry should always be motivated by the need to solve creative problems effectively, quickly, and within budget.

by mrob 1y ago

pjc50 1y ago

Plenty of people are still unhappy with any change from the 24fps standard.

mrob 1y ago
I don't understand it at all. As I child, I once visited Futuroscope[0] in France, a kind of cinema theme park. It has many different projection systems, e.g. 3D, dome screen, ultra-wide screen. The one that impressed me most was the Showscan[1]. This is analog film running at 60fps. I liked it so much I watched both Showscan movies they were showing twice. 60fps is by no means high frame rate, but even that was an enormous improvement over 24fps. I'm not aware of any movies shot in non-interleaved 120fps (AFAIK all the movies advertised as "120fps" are 2*60fps stereoscopic with the frames interleaved between the eyes). Considering how much better games look in high frame rate compared to 60fps I'd love to see a non-interleaved 120fps movie. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuroscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuroscope [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showscan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showscan
- Joeboy 1y ago
  > I'm not aware of any movies shot in non-interleaved 120fps I think Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk? Although I'm not sure if you can actually watch it at 120fps.
  - mrob 1y ago
    I thought that was 2 * 60fps stereoscopic (which technically is 120fps so there's no false advertising, just not in the same way as Showscan is 60fps). I'm also not aware of any way to watch it in 2 * 60fps if you missed the original showings.
    - Joeboy 1y ago
      Maybe you know something I don't, but as far as I can tell it was shot on Sony F65s running at 120fps.
      - mrob 1y ago
        Looks like I was mistaken and a non-interleaved 120fps version exists. Disappointing that there's apparently no way to actually watch it.
  - Mashimo 1y ago
    Seems like you can get it in 120 fps 2D, from Wikipedia: > To accommodate the film's wide release, various additional versions of the film were created.[3] They include 120 fps in 2D and 60 fps in 3D as well as today's current standard of 24 fps. The film also received a Dolby Cinema release, with two high dynamic range versions that can accommodate 2D and 3D, with up to 120 fps in 2K resolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Lynn%27s_Long_Halftime_Walk_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Lynn%27s_Long_Halftime_W...
    - Dromanx 1y ago
      [dead]

perching_aix 1y ago

I'm not sure about that. The few examples of high framerate movies I saw, it made the fact that they are on a set and that they're acting very obvious. It felt like watching a theater play. The micromovements, now visible, gave it all away. Obviously you can make 60+ FPS cinematography work well, games do it all the time. But whether that's practical in live action, I'm not sure. I certainly haven't seen an example that didn't make me cringe yet. Even in non-cinema settings, such as on YouTube, the presentation style usually needs adjusting a bit. Speaking of, I do wish that all the cinematography-focused content creators on YouTube stopped using 24 and 30 FPS out of vanity though at least... Though it would help if YouTube rolled out support for HFR (120+ fps) as well, so that those who include 24p movie snippets don't need to compromise.

mezentius 1y ago

The exact number “24” may be a standard for historical reasons, but a frame rate AROUND 24 is not an arbitrary standard. Higher frame rates require more light so that the image is properly exposed for the 1/(2x frame rate) of a second (assuming a 180-degree shutter angle) that the shutter is open. Doubling the frame rate requires doubling the amount of incident light, so going to 120 fps from 24 requires ~5x more light for a given ISO rating and aperture. If you think about how light falls off in proportion to the square of its distance from the source—and that generally actors don’t stand in one place, but move through large spaces where they must appear to be lit evenly—you start to see that this is not just a question of “efficient LED lighting.” Shooting at high frame rates requires an enormous amount of light that cannot easily (read: cheaply, quickly, without higher expenses) be brought to bear in a normal production outside of controlled studio conditions.

mrob 1y ago
High-CRI LED lighting is about ten times as efficient as the old film-making standard of incandescent lighting. Inverse square law affects incandescent lighting in exactly the same way, but they still managed to shoot indoor scenes at 24fps using it. Switching incandescent lighting for LED, keeping light locations and power use the same, will make every point about 10 times brighter than it was before. Therefore LED lighting is enough to shoot at about 240fps.
- mezentius 1y ago
  I’m guessing you haven’t worked in the film business, as ‘more efficient’ is not the same as ‘brighter’ in real-world conditions on a film set. LED lighting brings efficiencies in power use, weight, and heat, but nowhere near the quoted figure in terms of raw output due to optical loss, color control, diffusion, among other things. Unless you are James Cameron shooting Avatar III on a soundstage with (close to) a blank-cheque from the studio, you are still limited in terms of space (the constraints of the location given the size of the light and its supporting stand), time (the time to set up and adjust each light properly, including last-minute adjustments), labor (someone’s got to plug all that in, run the cables, etc.), and cost/availability (you don’t always get the lights you want for a given budget). Beyond that, you’re also considering aperture and ISO from a creative standpoint; maybe you don’t want to shoot wide open for reasons of image control, and so you may spend your lumen budget on ensuring that a particular scene can be exposed at, say, f/5.6 at ISO 100. Or you may want to spend your lumens on lens filtration, which produces a specific effect but further cuts down the incident light. In short, no, you do not have 10x light available to spend on frame rate, and for any marginal gains in raw output, most cinematographers are thinking about what creative choices it opens up for the film; I would never burn additional lumens to shoot at 120fps just for the sake of A/V fanboys on the internet, unless the scene requires slow-motion or high-speed capture for postproduction reasons. Technical choices in this industry should always be motivated by the need to solve creative problems effectively, quickly, and within budget.